Originally Posted By johnno52 When I was diagnosed with my cancer I went to the Web to find hope and comfort. I didn't want to be told that "God had a plan for me" like he had for my other friends and relatives. My goal in life is to provide hope and comfort to my wife and children first and then others whom I love. Many illnesses are terminal and there isn't any medical hope however they can make you comfortable if you have the money or the right medical plan. For many of these terminal patients hope and comfort can be had through "Faith". I would not take that away from them! I would kneel down and pray with them if it gave them comfort, I am be faithless but not heartless!
Originally Posted By Mr X When I hear religious folks say "god gives me hope and comfort", I'm always curious as to what that means exactly. The only real "hope and comfort" you could get from worshipping some deity is the idea that no matter if your life sucks NOW, you can escape when you die to a somehow better place, and as a bonus live forever. Which, by any rational definition, is actually hell. Living forever would be the most boring thing possible in the universe. Death is the REASON why life is precious.
Originally Posted By ReadingMom <<When I hear religious folks say "god gives me hope and comfort", I'm always curious as to what that means exactly>> Mr X, I can only speak for myself in answering this question of yours. My own faith is in my heart and I truly feel that God is looking out for me and my family. This doesn't mean that nothing bad is going to happen or that we willnot have to deal with great pain. It just means (to me) that I will not be alone. When my FIL passed away last September he had his faith and that made it much easier for him in his passing. It also made his passing easier for us as we watched him slip away in a hospital bed in his own home. Knowing that he was going to a better place where he would not be in pain and where he would not have to endure any more chemo made it a much easier transition for him and us. After he died I bought a plaque for my MIL. It read "Faith makes things possible....not easy." This is just how I look at life. I don't go to church every single Sunday, go to confession or read my bible all of the time. I do, however, pray...a lot. (Mostly that my DH's blood pressure will go down!) Seriously, as long as I have my faith I know that I can make it through any situation, no matter how difficult or painful.
Originally Posted By RC Collins johnno52: >>>.and I want to know why what he considers to be "cruelty, pain, and suffering" are bad? Who says they are bad?< Lets try a few; Burning witches at the stake! 100,000 Gassing and burning in ovens; 5,000,000 Bringing Christ to the Americas: lets say 500,000<< 100,000 witches burned at the stake? Uh, where and when was this again? And are you sure they were witches? Gassing and burning in ovens – is that a reference to Nazi Germany? The Nazis were not a Christian organization. By the way, not to minimize the murder of the Jewish people by Nazis, but there were also likely millions of other people murdered by the Nazis as well – people with disabilities, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christians hiding Jews, and let’s not forget homosexual people. So 5,000,000 is likely a very low estimate. As far as the Europeans coming to America – if you can show me where the Bible instructed them to kill the natives in America, I’d be very interested in that. And I hardly think you can blame people for inadvertent disease transmission to people who didn’t have a resistance to it. You know who has killed more people, by far, than any theistic religion? Atheists running 20th century governments. That is documented in older editions of the Guiness Book of World Records, before they stopped printing “harmful†records. >>I assume you think these Christian deeds came without pain and suffering?<< What makes you think that pain and suffering are bad? What any of what you cited wrong? The Nazis didn’t think it was wrong, and they were the ones in power. >>>But no government in the last 2000 years had has control over all information.< But they did the first 1000. Only the clergy for a long time had the right and knowledge to read and write. Even the nobility were denied.<< No, the Roman Catholic Church did not control all information in the world at any time. And over the last 100 years or so, there have been some really great archeological discoveries that have provided all sorts of great information. Like the Dead Sea Scrolls. >>Tell me what "Evidence" of the bible is corroborated with factual findings and not just "God's Word"<< What kind of evidence would suffice? Are you asking for videotape? What about prophecies that came true in history? Let’s start with the manuscript evidence. We have plenty of manuscripts, some quite early, of the various texts in the New Testament. Now, either those texts record actual events, or they don’t. There are sources outside of the New Testament that corroborate some of what the New Testament records. Have you looked into this at all? >>Religion to me is another way of exercising control over the masses with fear or should I say "Love". Whatever word you want to use, you are still conforming to the their norm.<< So you don’t conform to anything? If I have reason to believe that someone who knows a lot more than I do and has my best interest as a priority has advised me to do something, what’s wrong with conforming to that? >>But as you say what would I know about cruelty, pain and suffering and who am I to judge?<< Well, it is just that you seem thing think those things are bad, and I was wondering what makes them bad? Mr X: >>You don't need some god in order to feel hope or comfort.<< That is definitely true. But feelings can be misleading and based on ideas that don’t correspond to reality. johnno52 >>Right when going for my surgery, my surgeon gave me all the hope and comfort I needed. When I was diagnosed with my cancer I went to the Web to find hope and comfort.<< Like I started this topic to say, sound Christian teaching encourages the use of medicine. Christians should always be praying, including about illness, but God ordains the means AND the ends, and ethical medical help should not be avoided. I’m right with any of you atheists who say people are wrong to deny their child medical care. Mr X: >>When I hear religious folks say "god gives me hope and comfort", I'm always curious as to what that means exactly.<< The hope and comfort that I have through Jesus Christ is that: 1) everything is under control and in the end, good will triumph over evil; 2) I no longer have to be a slave to sin – God will always give me a way out of sinning; 3) Not only has He defeated sin, but death as well, and there will come a day when I will be transformed from a mortal sinner to someone with eternal life and fellowship with Him. >>The only real "hope and comfort" you could get from worshipping some deity is the idea that no matter if your life sucks NOW, you can escape when you die to a somehow better place, and as a bonus live forever.<< He makes my life better NOW. But yes, we should have an eternal perspective. People who say that what happens now “doesn’t matter†and we should only focus on Heaven are wrong – what happens now matters for all eternity. But yes, we shouldn’t sweat the small stuff and should instead have some perspective. >>Which, by any rational definition, is actually hell. Living forever would be the most boring thing possible in the universe. Death is the REASON why life is precious.<< Living forever in this fallen world with our bodies that get sick and wear out would indeed be bad. But the Biblical teaching is that there will come a time when God will judge the world (bringing ultimate justice), and will transform His followers and the universe (“a new heave and a new earthâ€) so that we will not suffer with evil and sickness and death. Look, I know for those who don’t believe, reading the Bible is like reading other people's mail. There are books in the New Testament, for example that were specifically written to Christians. Plus, I do believe sincerely seeking Him makes someone more open to hearing what He has to say. (After all, Christians do believe that they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.) I can recall one time in particular when He “spoke†to me. I’m not talking loony bin stuff here - like hearing voices. It was simply a very strong thought that came to me that I immediately rejected. He asked me “Why are you mad at me?†Like I said, I immediately thought “I’m not mad at You.†The thought didn’t feel like “me†asking myself “Why are you mad at God?†It was like someone else was asking me, “Why are you mad at me?†After I initially denied I was mad at Him, I thought about it and then I realized that I *had* been mad at God. That moment helped me to sit back and stop screwing some things up in my life. There have been many things I’ve done my way that I’ve regretted, but not one thing I did God’s way has ever come back to haunt me. Now, since that was all “inside†me, that really isn’t proof to anyone else. But that is an example of the kind of experience some Christians have.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn God gave us the ability to research, formulate knowledge, build tools and make chemical compounds. Go to the doctor. Pray that they have the knowledge and ability.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Since you want me to show you proof I will throughout the day quote you violence from your beloved bible, here's one to start. 2 Chronicles 28:5-8 5 Therefore the LORD his God handed him over to the king of Aram. The Arameans defeated him and took many of his people as prisoners and brought them to Damascus. He was also given into the hands of the king of Israel, who inflicted heavy casualties on him. 6 In one day Pekah son of Remaliah killed a hundred and twenty thousand soldiers in Judah—because Judah had forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers. 7 Zicri, an Ephraimite warrior, killed Maaseiah the king's son, Azrikam the officer in charge of the palace, and Elkanah, second to the king. 8 The Israelites took captive from their kinsmen two hundred thousand wives, sons and daughters. They also took a great deal of plunder, which they carried back to Samaria.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Justified murder and execution There are many passages in the Bible that could be construed as justifying either murder or capital punishment. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB) If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) More to come
Originally Posted By utahjosh johnno52, the culture, laws, and pretty much everything about society has changed from 3000 years ago. Those who believe in God know that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But I believe that the things He tells us depends on our needs. He'll never change eternal truths, but the practical applications and guidelines for how to live can change. Jesus Christ was sent by His father, and he gave us some new guidelines. Those are the ones Christians follow.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Again whenever religion comes up in a thread, with so many poster's convictions it always seems to go off topic as this one has. I made a statement from my own views that I have seen cruelty, pain and suffering. Do I have to back up everything I say with proof? So the next poster wanted to know "who says its bad"? As if to say "according to my teachings these were made for the good of mankind" If people want to use scriptures from the bible to try and convince non believers that if they don't have the "Faith in God" then they are doomed for all eternity, then this ends up as an fear mongering threat. This does nothing for me but to get my back up. I have given you some proof that I just copied from the net. There are many more if you would like to see them, but I am sure you have already read and studied them with your fellowship groups.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Thanks Utahjazz yes culture has changed over 3000 years, however with the scriptures I posted above about virginity and homosexualality? how do the Religious Orders treat these ancient sins today? Again yes Jesus, in accordance to the New Testament was flawless in his teachings. They say he made miracles and rose from the dead, but that today would be a "coup" for a PR manager. The RC Church had complete control of all intellectual thoughts and discussion for well over a 1000 years. Any deviations would have been deemed blasphemous and Heretic and hundreds of thousands paid for it. He was a Jew, so what do they say and write about him?
Originally Posted By utahjosh < virginity and homosexualality? how do the Religious Orders treat these ancient sins today> I could tell you how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints deals with these issues, if you'd like.
Originally Posted By RC Collins johnno52 >>Since you want me to show you proof I will throughout the day quote you violence from your beloved bible, here's one to start. 2 Chronicles 28:5-8<< Yeah – no matter how many times I read that, nowhere does it command Christians to do anything – certainly not join the Nazis or kill off native Americans. >>Justified murder and execution<< >>There are many passages in the Bible that could be construed as justifying either murder or capital punishment.<< I would draw a distinction between murder and killing/capital punishment. But who says murder is wrong? You haven’t answered me. You seem to be saying that there are things in the world YOU don’t like. But what does that have to do with the existence of God? Here’s the point I am getting at. One reason people give for rejecting God is that there is evil in the world. I maintain that yes, both good and evil are real, and there is evil in the world. If you believe that we are nothing more than molecules here by accident, then how can there really be a difference between “good†and “evil� I maintain that there is a God transcendent of the material universe whose very nature is good. Evil is the absence or corruption of what is good (kind of like death is the ceasing of life). Cruelty is evil. Murder is evil. First and foremost, they are evil because they go against the will of God. But if you’re going to try to tell me that something is evil, you are using theistic language and concepts while denying the central core that gives them meaning. We do know inherently that some things are evil. That’s because there is a God who has instilled that in our spirit. I agree that sometimes, life is cruel. But where do we go from here? You seem to be saying "and that's just the way it is." I believe what the Bible says, which is that mankind brought this upon ourselves, and that God has done something about it, continues to do something about it, and will ultimately put an end to it. >>The RC Church had complete control of all intellectual thoughts and discussion for well over a 1000 years.<< Except for Jews, the Muslims, the Coptic Christians, and all of the others, and all of the stuff that was buried or lost and has been found by archeologists in recent times...
Originally Posted By DlandJB Religion to me is another way of exercising control over the masses with fear or should I say "Love". Whatever word you want to use, you are still conforming to the their norm. >>>> Interesting, because the ultimate gift of God, in my belief, is that of free will. You are free to choose to believe or not. I don't think it would mean much if we didn't have a choice. But when we choose to let God be our manager, perhaps that would means we have to change some things about how we live? If you believed, do you think you would you have to change the way you live?
Originally Posted By johnno52 >Cruelty is evil. Murder is evil. First and foremost, they are evil because they go against the will of God.< So are you saying, what I posted in 27 & 28 was not God's will? Utahjosh thanks however, can we keep this topic of faith non denominational or have we gone past that?
Originally Posted By johnno52 >But when we choose to let God be our manager, perhaps that would means we have to change some things about how we live? If you believed, do you think you would you have to change the way you live?< I have no argument in believing in a "Higher Power" you can call it whatever you like. I listen to my good conscience, it very seldom guides me to bad decisions, does it make mistakes? of course it does, but usually its my physical self that makes most of them. I don't believe that a faith in an idol from any religion will do any better, teachings are also misguided. Get a group of people together once a week (non denominational) for coffee and you will see the goodness in them and yourself.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Utahjosh thanks however, can we keep this topic of faith non denominational or have we gone past that?> I was just offering an answer to a question you posed.
Originally Posted By PetesDraggin "Get a group of people together once a week (non denominational) for coffee and you will see the goodness in them and yourself." That wouldn't work for some people on here because they don't drink coffee due to religious beliefs.
Originally Posted By johnno52 PD, I would have suggested bottled water, however they have many impurities as in faith! UJ If we keep it based on faith without the specifics of denominations we have a better chance to stay on topic! I use the Old and New testament so we can quote from one source.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Which version of the Old and New Testaments? What about those who don't believe in the New Testament? What about the faith of those who follow Islam? What about those who have faith in a higher power, some sort of God, but does not believe in the Bible at all? Just what are you trying to discuss here?
