Originally Posted By RC Collins johnno52: >>>Cruelty is evil. Murder is evil. First and foremost, they are evil because they go against the will of God.< So are you saying, what I posted in 27 & 28 was not God's will?<< As I wrote, there is a difference between murder and killing. For example, if someone attacks you with a deadly weapon, and you kill them in self-defense, that is not murder. God sometimes used human beings to carry out His judgment. It is His place to decide who lives or dies. God does not order people to murder, as murder is unjustified killing, which God's commands are just. But if you don’t believe in a God who determines what is right or wrong, how do you say that those passages depict something that is wrong? >>Utahjosh thanks however, can we keep this topic of faith non denominational or have we gone past that?<< He cites a source he considers authoritative. I do not believe that church is authoritative, but I completely understand why he cites it.
Originally Posted By johnno52 First of all you can pick whichever book(s) you want. I know you need one because you cannot sermonize without one! Evangelists seldom do why should you be any different? Your statement "some sort of God" What only a God with a bible is believable according to the gospel of who? Josh! What am I trying to discuss? That I don't need your idol or any other to have peace and comfort with my medical care! Remember I came to this decision on my own and I don't need a "flock" to continue reassuring me, I am not a sheep!
Originally Posted By johnno52 >God sometimes used human beings to carry out His judgment< The catch is "sometimes" yes! what about the other times? How many times I hear "Its God's will" "He is testing us" Testing us for what? to see if we are going to be stoned to death? >He cites a source he considers authoritative.< You say Tomato I say Tomayto! You say authoritative, I say indoctrination!
Originally Posted By DlandJB Get a group of people together once a week (non denominational) for coffee and you will see the goodness in them and yourself. >>> Funny you should say that, cause I spent about 5 years as a Unitarian Universalist and that pretty much describes them -- good, well-meaning people, for the most part. But when life presented the need for some "moral absolutes" as it were, they were about as firm as jello - and I did see some relationships and lives ruined because there was no real anchor for them. Absolutely good people, but sometimes that just isn't enough. As the great prophet Bob Dylan has observed "You gotta serve somebody." IMO
Originally Posted By johnno52 Was their "ruined relationships" due to the fact that the teachings was so focused on the bible and God that little effort was made to understand the everyday living in the real world? This is quite evident with the parents that let their daughter die while they waited for guidance from their God. When people devote their complete lives to a dogma and live in walled communities, wouldn't this shield them from everyday problems? As evident in the US you don't need a wall to be isolated from your less fortunate neighbors. The World is not only held together by "love and faith" and that we must hope that our "maker" returns and saves us! I would say there are many people in the Forbes 500 that hope he takes his time. How much better can it get for them unless they get to keep their riches. Many people have life problems not because they "don't have an anchor". I can also say that "no ship is going anywhere with one stuck in the mud". How many of the faithful are going to lose their homes this year? We all have the knowledge to do the right things in life, for the most part some of it is passed down to us by our parents, the rest we pick up ourselves, except some don't have the confidence in themselves and they look to others for the answers like in religion
Originally Posted By mele Most "real" Christians (for lack of a better term) don't have faith in God just to save themselves from bad things happening to them. The fact that a person is very faithful to God and their beliefs doesn't mean that they will never have something bad happen in their lives. Most realize that life is hard and that bad things will befall them and their faith in God helps them cope with these things, to get through them with their spirit intact. It's about trying to remain optimistic (which is a commendable goal.) If people just go to church and pray so that they never have a bad life, they're bound to lose their faith quickly. That is a level of immaturity. Most often, people DO need something to anchor them...not because it means they'll never have problems but because everybody has problems and most people need something to hold onto while they weather the storms. It's human nature to need such things, it's about survival. I don't have a huge desire to be a part of any religious organization. I don't respect churches when they focus on telling other people how to live their lives, especially when they get politically active. But I do respect religion for the comfort it gives people when they are in pain. Most people are just trying to get through their lives the best they can and a belief in God gives them comfort. It's time to stop slamming people for doing that. There are plenty of things to slam people for (if that floats your boat) but maybe it would be more civil to let people discuss the beauty of their religion in some threads without repeatedly butting in with insults. If you're so secure that there is no God, be still with that knowledge and let other people discuss what they want. I know that I've caught myself saying things about religion that make me sound so condescending and elitist. It seems that many people who are atheists seem to look down on believers as simple-minded fools. IMO, to look at other people that way shows a level of immaturity and ignorance, much like what they are accusing the believers of having. If you don't want people to preach to you, don't do the same thing to them. Constantly berating them and spelling out why there is NO God is the *exact* same preaching as you are accusing them of doing! Be secure in your own beliefs and don't shove them down someone else's throat...isn't that the exact same thing atheists want believers to do?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I scoffed at the notion before, but I'm beginning to see why some people feel like their Christian faith is increasingly under atack. Not that I agree, but I can see why they'd think it.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Now I'm "shoving down my beliefs down someone's throat"! If you read all my postings you will see that I have been very civil and honest with my writing. I have not "put down" anyone as you call it! Whenever I have asked a question about someone's answer it is to get clarification of their conviction or thoughts and I try to explain myself when they ask the same of mine. This is a discussion board where discussions go back and forth between people. It has been very respectful for most part and especially by myself. I'm am not preaching to anyone as preaching is made only by prophets or the clergy. >If people just go to church and pray so that they never have a bad life, they're bound to lose their faith quickly. That is a level of immaturity< So now I am being judged by you as "immature" you have never met me or know me! Should I press the notify the moderator button? No I am not immature, and I will take it on the chin!
Originally Posted By mele There have been quite a few religion threads with multiple people contributing. Not everything I said is about you. You did accuse someone of preaching (maybe not the word you used but you jumped down their throat), however. I'm just pointing out that you continually stating your beliefs is the same thing as you told someone else not to do. <<So now I am being judged by you as "immature" you have never met me or know me!>> Um...is it alright if I judge your reading comprehension? That statement is about people who only go to church because they think it will stop anything bad from happening to them. I guess if you fall into that category, then yes, that is a level of immaturity that will cause you to lose your faith quickly. (It's not about judging someone, just saying that unrealistic expectations will lead to disappointment.) Life will have bad spots no matter what you do. Going to church won't stop that from happening and anyone who thinks so is a bit immature and looking at it from a selfish "what can God do for me" type of attitude that doesn't quite fall into line of true belief. If you don't call yourself a Christian and don't go to church...how can that statement have anything to do with you?
Originally Posted By johnno52 >Except for Jews, the Muslims, the Coptic Christians, and all of the others, and all of the stuff that was buried or lost and has been found by archeologists in recent times...< RC I failed to mention that you are right in this statement as I have read some books by a Jewish Archeologist by the name of Zecharia Sitchin were he studies Sumarian tablets. He confirms many of the scriptures writings.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >Um...is it alright if I judge your reading comprehension?< Is this answer called "Baiting for a fight"? I know what happened to one poster who got nailed for his replies!
Originally Posted By mele LOL. That's the 2nd time you've vaguely threatened me with some sort of Admin intervention. If you feel I've crossed a line, feel free to report me, however, it might be more worthwhile to see how your own posting technique is quite "baiting".
Originally Posted By DlandJB Was their "ruined relationships" due to the fact that the teachings was so focused on the bible and God that little effort was made to understand the everyday living in the real world?>>> Unitarian Universalists don't focus on the Bible and most don't believe in God. You missed my point.
Originally Posted By johnno52 From their web site Welcome! If you're searching for a religious home that is guided by a quest for truth and meaning, not by a set creed or dogma, we invite you to discover Unitarian Universalism. We are a caring, open-minded religious community that encourages you to seek your own spiritual path. Unitarian Universalist (UU) congregations are places where people gather to nurture their spirits and put their faith into action by helping to make our communities—and the world—a better place. Not focused on the bible, their leaders are called "Ministers", is this a cult?
Originally Posted By DlandJB Not focused on the bible, their leaders are called "Ministers", is this a cult?>>> LOL - actually, the inside joke was "UUs are atheists with children" Do a little more reading. Not a cult. More like a group of humanists with really good choirs.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >I did see some relationships and lives ruined because there was no real anchor for them.< No anchor is right. Looks like these people are on a sailboat with lots of wind and Capt. Jacks faulty compass! Like many lost souls all searching for the treasure/salvation at the end of the rainbow. Afraid that death is final and the hope of another life another chance. By congregating with others who think alike gives them comfort that they are doing the right thing. Faith within their group gives them hope. Very insecure people!
Originally Posted By DlandJB You still seem to be missing the point. These are the same people you were talking about when you said... "Get a group of people together once a week (non denominational) for coffee and you will see the goodness in them and yourself."
Originally Posted By ecdc I often hear this argument of "no anchor" for atheist's and agnostics. Yet it's almost always made by people who themselves are not in those groups. It's like Republicans who listen to Rush Limbaugh to find out what Democrats believe. The truth is, once they've gone through their struggle with loss of belief, most non-believers find their anchor in humanism or in their personal relationships. It's why most of the non-believers I know are far more outraged over something like the Iraq war than believers; if this life is it then their existence was just wasted while George Bush got on the job training. It's much easier to be a religious person and, while certainly be sad and believe every death is tragic, to then say that those killed are "in a better place." That's a long, round-about answer, but I just don't buy the "no anchor" argument. My response would be that religion isn't an anchor at all, but rather, an attempt by humans to control that which they have no control over. When death or random acts occur is when religion is most frequently invoked.
