Originally Posted By utahjosh Mr. X, you REALLY believe that the BILLIONS of people in the world that believe in some sort of God need their head examined?
Originally Posted By ecdc While I don't agree with Mr. X's statement, he didn't say that anyone who believed in God needed their head examined. He said that anyone who believed in the literalism of the Bible does. I don't think they need their head's examined. I do think they need some exposure to other ideas, to the history of the Bible, comparative religion, education, etc. From my perspective, the thing that separates western Christians from fundamentalist Muslims isn't their beliefs. It's education and prosperity. Put Christians in similar circumstances, and history has shown us they're capable of just as much violence. It's ironic that so many religions are so certain and unwavering in their truthfulness, yet they act shockingly fragile. Inquiry (beyond the shallowness provided in Sunday school) is usually discouraged, and information about the religion or organization that doesn't come from the organization itself is often seen as suspect and untrustworthy.
Originally Posted By DlandJB ***They were indeed sincere in their journey. I dare say, they just keep missing the appropriate off ramp.*** Who are you to judge?>>> I should have said "In my opinion" - could you live with that? However, I did walk a few miles in their shoes, so I do feel I have the right to do some judging. I was not just on the outside looking in.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >However, I did walk a few miles in their shoes, so I do feel I have the right to do some judging. I was not just on the outside looking in.< I'm glad you brought this up as you did walk in their shoes, but please the topic mentions "Health Care and Faith". I walked my miles in regards to my experience with my serious health issue and gave an account of the experience going through it without the faith,I have not as yet to see anyone who themselves have walked those same miles and excuse me if I missed it. The Faith part keeps cropping up and how a positive attitude and belief in God can help you recover or accept death better. However are these the posters actual experiences, or are they from what they have been told (or read) to expect?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>However, I did walk a few miles in their shoes, so I do feel I have the right to do some judging. I was not just on the outside looking in.<< An excellent statement, and one that describes me as well. It's why I responded like I did to RC about some of his comments. I'm more than familiar with the one-liners that will make the faithful nod their heads in church - "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no..." yada, yada, yada. I used to nod along to those kinds of comments and think they were a good response. Now, I recognize that they're designed to do just what they do - reassure the faithful. They aren't good arguments for religion against criticism.
Originally Posted By DlandJB I'm glad you brought this up as you did walk in their shoes, but please the topic mentions "Health Care and Faith". I walked my miles in regards to my experience with my serious health issue and gave an account of the experience going through it without the faith,I have not as yet to see anyone who themselves have walked those same miles and excuse me if I missed it. >> Good point. I went through a couple of serious health issues (stroke and septic shock) and I can't imagine having gone through it, much less living through it, without my faith. Especially with the septic shock, where my family was told at one point I probably would not make it through the night and several major organs were shutting down. I prayed my kiester off and we had friends and family praying all over the place. But we also had quality medical care.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Thats great I am very happy you made it through as all your family, friends and medical caregivers. The way I see it is that with or without faith the outcomes will be the same. They are dependent on the (1) disease/illness, (2) professional caregivers (3) the ability for ones body to fight it. The last could be controlled partly by the body's strength to fight and as mentioned trough positive attitude. Whether this is through faith for some or confidence in others.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Mr. X, you REALLY believe that the BILLIONS of people in the world that believe in some sort of God need their head examined?*** Perhaps. Mass insanity of some sort is not out of the question imo. However, that's not what I said. What I said was that people who believe the bible is literal fact (900 year old people, oceans parting, a little garden with a talking snake, etc...) should have their heads examined.
Originally Posted By Mr X I do believe strongly in the power of positive thinking as far as illness is concerned. That's what prayer is in this case. Having faith that you'll get better, that you have strength on your side, etc... However, as JB said quality medical care is ALSO part of the equation. You can "think positive" all you want, but if you've cut a major artery and you don't seek medical help via stitches, surgery, transfusion maybe, etc...you could very well die of blood loss no matter how positively you feel about it. JB, I did realize that it was your opinion, but let's not forget that every time I offer MY opinion (that religion is ridiculous) I get scolded and told that I "don't understand" or worse. So, seeing people, SIMILAR people (and I'm not singling you out or anything) talk about how important religion is BUT why one is better than the other, I just have to shake my head.
Originally Posted By DlandJB JB, I did realize that it was your opinion, but let's not forget that every time I offer MY opinion (that religion is ridiculous) I get scolded and told that I "don't understand" or worse.>>> You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I would never say otherwise. Still, I can't help but wish that you saw it differently, because the joy that I have experienced through a close relationship with God can be truly awesome. My hope is that the people who would like to see you believe only have your best interests at heart. Good medical care comes from people who are gifted in that way. I think those are really "gifts" from God, so that doesn't leave Him out of the equation. There have also been studies that suggest that prayer seems to work well in medical emergencies. Determining why is ultimately a matter of faith.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >Good medical care comes from people who are gifted in that way. I think those are really "gifts" from God, so that doesn't leave Him out of the equation.< Then Small Cell Cancers and other terminal illnesses can be assumed as "Gifts" from God also? Shouldn't you give him the bad credit as well as the good credit? Then again whom am I to say that terminal cancers are bad! >Determining why is ultimately a matter of faith.< Again there is never any proof just assumptions which some call faith! A never ending story.
Originally Posted By pecos bill While Sigmund Freud was far from a perfect man, some of his writings regarding human psychology and religious faith are nearly flawless in their logic. They present a strictly scientific look into the effect of prayer on the mind and body. Of course, he is instantly discounted as a radical nutcase by the religious sector. If religious people are so certain of eternal paradise just beyond the curtain of death, then why are they so damned afraid of dying?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If religious people are so certain of eternal paradise just beyond the curtain of death, then why are they so damned afraid of dying?> I'm not afraid of dying, not in the least. I do intend to enjoy my life while I'm here. To love and create a family, to serve others, and to learn and grow as much as I can. But I'm not afraid of when this life comes to an end.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm not afraid of dying, not in the least. I do intend to enjoy my life while I'm here. To love and create a family, to serve others, and to learn and grow as much as I can. But I'm not afraid of when this life comes to an end.<< I think the point is, Josh, that it's typically religious people that fight the most for life, even if the quality of that life is in question. Terri Schiavo would be the pre-eminent example. Abortion would be another, although I understand that it's a far more complex issue. But I think one could make the case that a fetus would be a lot better off in heaven than in a crack addict's home. I agree with pecos bill's point, that religious people often see death as a punishment, or a tragedy. If they really believed their religion, all death should be welcomed, even encouraged. I know that most see suicide as a sin, and I get that. But for example, Evangelicals make a huge issue over the fact that God gave his only begotten, that Jesus voluntarily died for us on the cross. It strikes me as a small, meaningless sacrifice for a God to die and go to paradise or heaven. If I was Jesus, and knew with a surety that I'd be going to paradise, I'd welcome death with open arms, understanding that a few hours of horrible suffering would be well worth what awaits me. Instead, it's presented as if it's this giant sacrifice. It doesn't logically make sense with Christian theology.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < If they really believed their religion, all death should be welcomed, even encouraged.> I disagree with that comment very much.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I disagree with that comment very much.<< I don't see why. Most religions see life as suffering on some level, and death releases that suffering. Again, I know Christianity doesn't encourage suicide, but if death is going to happen, why postpone with medical science? After all, science isn't to be trusted - it gives us evolution. So it seems like a double-whammy to both rely on science and to postpone death, which would only unite one (or in the case of Mormonism, reunite one) with God.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Prolonged life through prayer brings in funds, proven by tele-evangelists.
Originally Posted By dshyates I'm not even religious, but I believe that being alive is suffering and being dead is an end to the suffering. Being alive is also joy, love, affection, anger, desire, jealousy, hate, disappointment, euphoria, etc. And death ends it all.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >I'm not even religious, but I believe that being alive is suffering and being dead is an end to the suffering. Being alive is also joy, love, affection, anger, desire, jealousy, hate, disappointment, euphoria, etc. And death ends it all.< This could also be waiting for us in the after life!
