Originally Posted By utahjosh <Most religions see life as suffering on some level, and death releases that suffering.> I see life as containing suffering, but that suffering isn't the whole point of life. <Christianity doesn't encourage suicide, but if death is going to happen, why postpone with medical science?> I believe that our life here on earth is given to us, and we are responsible to make the most of it. I also believe that suicide is always wrong. <After all, science isn't to be trusted - it gives us evolution.> That statement of how a religious person might think does not apply to me, nor to most religious people. It's silly.
Originally Posted By dshyates Most christians that I know don't trust science at all. Between Evolution, the big bang, and cloning. Science is evil.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Most christians that I know don't trust science at all. Between Evolution, the big bang, and cloning. Science is evil.> I don't know about "most" Christians, but I believe in Jesus Christ and, and I think science is a wonderful thing. We should study and learn all we can about how this world works. I know a group of over 13 million believers that would probably agree with me.
Originally Posted By pecos bill Ah yes, suicide is a great sin according to the christian faiths. They basically condemn a terminally ill person to writhe in agony until their respective disease has consumed them entirely. We dont let our pets suffer such misery when they are sick, but thanks to religious beliefs, all people, even atheists, must endure this torture. And people cannot fathom why atheists are so outspoken in their dislike of religion!
Originally Posted By dshyates The interesting thing about the Big Bang, is that Einstien's research lead him to discover it, but he could never accept it because he believe it proved the "Let there be light " moment and he was a non-believer. And evengelicals don't believe it because they think it disproves the Bible.
Originally Posted By Mr X **There have also been studies that suggest that prayer seems to work well in medical emergencies. Determining why is ultimately a matter of faith.** No, it's not. It's been proven over and over again that positive thinking is helpful to the healing process. It's really very simple (the mind is very powerful).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I also believe that suicide is always wrong.*** Way to be heartless. Obviously you don't know much about mental illness and how it can affect a person. Pray you never do.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm not heartless. I DO know about mental illness, have people close to me suffer, and i've seen the ravages of age come upon people close to me. You presume to know my life and relationships and experience, and you could not be any more WRONG.
Originally Posted By mele Sometimes it is more than just the positive thinking of the person who is ill. Often there are "miracles" when the ill person is completely unconscious but their loved ones are praying for them. I'm not 100% positive about any sort of God, however I do believe that there is power in prayer and not just for the person doing the praying. Sometimes it can affect other people. I have come to believe that it's an energy that we all have within ourselves and that the more people pray for something, the more energy is directed towards it. It is the same thing as positive thinking, but it's also *beyond* positive thinking. Sometimes that energy is enough to help...other times, it isn't. I know it's very new-agey but it makes more sense, to me, than a big spirit in the sky who picks and chooses which prayers to answer.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Shouldn't you give him the bad credit as well as the good credit? Then again whom am I to say that terminal cancers are bad!>>> I give him credit for free will. That same free will has allowed us to pollute the atmosphere, put who knows what into our air, water, bodies, etc...that may cause all kinds of illness including cancer. I don't believe He causes it, but that he allows it. Do I understand completely why? Not all the time - but I trust that some pain and hurts allow us to call on our better selves or allow others to do so for us or for others -- For all the suffering I have endured I am a stronger and better and more faithful person for it. My suffering is nothing compared to the suffering of others. I now do some volunteer work that I hope relieves some pain for other people. I pray that somehow I can help others. I don't have all the answers and I'm not terribly eloquent in explaining this. All I can say is that I do believe and pray that others have the opportunity to experience the joy that comes with that.
Originally Posted By DlandJB I'm not afraid of dying, not in the least. I do intend to enjoy my life while I'm here. To love and create a family, to serve others, and to learn and grow as much as I can. But I'm not afraid of when this life comes to an end.<< I'm only afraid of the When, not of actually dying. I'd rather not go while my kids are young. I'd like to live long enough to really feel that I have done enough to bring others to know God, cause I can only do that while I'm alive. It is natural to be at the least skittish about what we don't know. I know I believe there is life after death. I believe we are wired for eternity - but not knowing what that is going to be like does scare me -- more because I'm a control freak than for any other reason. We are actually doing a study right now based on a new book called "One Month to Live" and asks the question "What would you do if you knew you only had 30 more days to live?" How would you spend that time? For most people it would be spent with friends and family rather than on possessions. The point is that when we whittle down to the top priorities of our lives, we often realize we lose track of them amidst the time wastes of day to day life. It has been an interesting study.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Again, I know Christianity doesn't encourage suicide, but if death is going to happen, why postpone with medical science? >>>> Because, in my belief, our time here prepares us for our time in eternity, and if we have a role to play here that can help others in eternity it is a shame to cut that short.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Most christians that I know don't trust science at all. Between Evolution, the big bang, and cloning. Science is evil.>> I dare say I know more than a few Christians and they definitely accept science. Who is to say that the big bang isn't the moment of creation? Works for me. Evolution is a very misunderstood area thanks to the lazy media. (Also supremely off topic for this thread) There are many devout Christian scientists/doctors as well. They are not mutually exclusive.
Originally Posted By jdub >> But I think one could make the case that a fetus would be a lot better off in heaven than in a crack addict's home.<< Why is the example that of "a crack addict's home?"
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Why is the example that of "a crack addict's home"<< It's to illustrate that, if one believes in an afterlife that is "paradise" and far better than this life, then why support a child being born into a terrible situation rather than simply going on to heaven? My point is that perhaps we should step back and question some of the assumptions our religious society makes. We're told our whole lives being raised as Christians that death is tragic; that's reinforced by our culture's numerous attempts to prolong life, even unnaturally (again, I'd cite Terri Schiavo, who ended up having a brain that was mostly liquified). We're told that Jesus was amazing because he gave his life for us - the ultimate sacrifice. All I'm asking, is why is all of this true if heaven is so great? If Jesus knew he was going to be in heaven where everything is so wonderful, why was it a sacrifice for him to die?
Originally Posted By Mr X Well, it was painful. THAT'S the part I always thought of when contemplating his sacrifice (and it sure as heck was, I certainly respect the man whether or not he was actually of divine origin or whatever, his moral teachings are sound and his death VERY tragic)...not the "death" part. He was basically tortured to death. If done for other people, I can surely see that as being a "sacrifice".
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If Jesus knew he was going to be in heaven where everything is so wonderful, why was it a sacrifice for him to die?> The actual death of Jesus Christ wasn't the big deal. Dying = end of suffering, right? It was everything that led up to his giving of His own life that was so amazing. I believe Christ suffered the penalty in behalf of every person EVER - all wickedness, corruption, of ever killing and torture, of all sin that has ever been on this earth and more. It wasn't just MORTAL pain, a few moments of suffering before eternal bliss. It was an infinite and eternal sacrifice, a suffering that a mere mortal wouldn't be capable of, and so intense that a God trembled because of pain and talked of finding a way out. It is not completely comprehendible by mortal men, and something that I don't like to see trivialized.
Originally Posted By Mr X **a God trembled** I think this sort of reference is part of the reason why other christians are wary of mormons. It doesn't jive with the normal christian way of thinking.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***something that I don't like to see trivialized*** I don't think anyone trivialized it. Where did you read that part?
