Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Despite that kid's obvious mental problems, I cant help the hatred I have toward him. Problems or not, he was an evil, despicable thing on that day.>> Where is the shock? The mother knowingly and willfully allowed the kid to possess a small arsenal of guns, bullet-proof vest, took him routinely to shooting ranges so he could better his marksmanship, supplied him with hundreds of rounds of ammo, allowed him to have a career of playing violent video games, and then goes on a killing spree. And we are suppose to be surprised? Where is the surprise? This mom raised a monster. No matter how you look at it, she failed this child. If the kid is mentally challenged and you are getting 300K a year in alimony, get the darn kid help! You don't give him weapons! I also partially hold the Dad responcible. If my ex had 100% custody of my child and he was mentally challenged, and the mom was equiping him with weapons. I'd get the matter in court! And get custody! I guess Connecticut found out what happens when you have two totally clueless, irresponcible parents, more focused on meeting their own needs, than meeting the needs of their children. And all the gun safety classes in the world can't fix stupid.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom There are a lot of people in this country that shouldn't have guns in their possession. Just like there are plenty of people that bare children, and have no business having, or raising them.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And all the gun safety classes in the world can't fix stupid.<< Education can fix stupid. When I talk about gun safety training, I'm not talking about marksmanship. I'm talking about courses designed to explain the serious responsibilities of gun ownership, including assessing which sort of person really shouldn't have a gun. It will not stop every maniac. But that doesn't mean we can't try things to see if we can lessen the numbers of incidents far below the current rate. And if we decide that we need to increase police presence at schools ad other vulnerable places, then that should be paid for largely by taxes on guns and ammunition. This constant "Well, crazy people will still find a way" is not a reason to give up trying to make it harder to massacre people. Australia got sick of it and they made a major change and it had a major effect. If gun owners don't want total prohibition of gun ownership, then they damn well better start ponying up great ideas and quit with the tiresome "nothing's going to work anyway" attitude and stall tactics.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer "Just like there are plenty of people that bare children" Let's leave the priests out of this.
Originally Posted By tashajilek " You don't supply crazy with a small arsenal, bullet-proof vest and hundreds of rounds of ammo. Then take crazy for routine target practice so crazy can better his marksmanship skills." I dont think a parent should ever own guns with children and teenagers period. Even without a mental illness what child or teenager should be exposed to a deadly weapon? Most people i know would never want a gun in a household with their children around locked up or not. What kind of example is it anyways? your children grow up in fear thinking that owning a gun is the only way to live. I guess i just really cant understand how things run in the US. EVERYONE even people who are not American are talking about this and are angry over this stupidity. It is really hard living somewhere with no guns and trying to understand why people feel they need guns. I also find it really strange that in America owning a gun is normal.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost ^^^^Most gun owners have guns for the purpose of hunting as a sport. They don't harbor any real thoughts that people are going to come in and take away their possessions. For most it is just for sport (not much of a sport I might add, but that's all there is to it). They aren't running around in fear of their neighbors as you are suggesting. I feel the need to interject here, before the wrong impression is reached. I do not now nor have I ever owned a gun of any type. (retraction, I had a cap gun as a young kid and an air rifle as a pre-teen). I do not belong to or support the NRA in any manner especially when it comes to their support of ownership of assault weapons. I just feel that history is a very strong lesson giver and psychology a very strong method for keeping freedom.
Originally Posted By tashajilek "They don't harbor any real thoughts that people are going to come in and take away their possessions" A few post here have suggested that is the purpose for having one. "For most it is just for sport (not much of a sport I might add, but that's all there is to it" Yea, i am not a fan of hunting either. I can see the purpose for if food is needed, but i hate the fact people find it "fun" to kill an animal.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It is really hard living somewhere with no guns and trying to understand why people feel they need guns.<< We currently have 1 gun for 9 out of 10 people (including adults and children) in this country by some estimates. Factor in illegal guns and who knows how many more that may be. All this gun ownership hasn't made us any safer, as we have the highest gun death rate in the developed world. It's a strange mix of actual history, invented history, lots of politics, fear mongering, entertainment that glorifies violence, and even our old friend racism that plays into why we are so awash in guns in America. Some people believe in their heart that if guns were abolished here, the government would force everyone into work camps. Our weak-sauce version of healthcare reform is a prime example for them of how the government wants to take away freedom (the freedom to die without medical coverage if one can't afford it). I do think that there are people who are responsible gun owners. They realize it is a weapon, not a toy, not a manhood extender, and they take precautions to ensure it is kept safely away from children and people who are mentally unstable. Unfortunately, a quick YouTube search will reveal countless videos of people doing dangerous, stupid things with guns. On Independence Day, you can hear gunshots in the distance every year, and that's here in the "liberal" Bay Area. And Sandy Hook and Columbine and how many others show that plenty of people are completely clueless and careless with their guns resulting in devastation. I really think this whole country suffers from mental illness on this issue.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Some people believe in their heart that if guns were abolished here, the government would force everyone into work camps.>> This is at the heart of the prepper mentality, the whole glorification of Ruby Ridge and 'Fightin' back the Feds' mythology that keeps these people clinging to false beliefs. Seriously, people need to stop and think about what the government owns and what the civilians own in terms of weaponry. If our leaders wanted all of us rounded up and placed in work camps, they could do it today. Piece of cake. Civilian militias would be totally powerless to stop them. This is *not* like the Ewoks doing battle against the Stormtroopers on Endor's moon. There is no way any well-formed civilian militia could ever overpower or outlast our National Guard. EVER! They would be outmanned and outgunned like 1,000 to 1, minimum. And the government has armored tanks and drones and satellites and, most importantly, time. They can wait almost indefinitely outside those little militia compounds whilst the food and water and other provisions eventually run out. Which they will. So help me, I just want to b*tchslap common sense into these yahoos. They're trapped in the 1800's and don't realize just how much the world has changed. Waco should have been the wakeup call for their little wargames fantasy. Effn unbelievable.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>There is no way any well-formed civilian militia could ever overpower or outlast our National Guard. EVER!<< If you watch "Red Dawn" as if it were a documentary like some of these clowns do, then anything is possible.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<<Some people believe in their heart that if guns were abolished here, the government would force everyone into work camps.>> <This is at the heart of the prepper mentality,> This is absolutely not the reason for Preparation done by many members of the LDS Church. An added bonus? Sure? In fact, a few months ago, a senior leader of the LDS Church gave a sermon and discouraged members from stockpiling weapons as part of the general preparation they encourage.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>This is absolutely not the reason for Preparation done by many members of the LDS Church.<< Well, back during the Y2K scare, a close LDS friend of mine at work was very, very worried about everything coming crashing down on January 1, 2000. Even after it was pretty clear that most of the major commuter issues had been resolved well in advance of that day, he and his stake were canning food like crazy every weekend and during the evenings because they were convinced that the government wasn't telling the whole truth in order to avoid a panic.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I don't think LDS members in general acted any differently than most of American during Y2K, except their reaction was on top of the regular emergency preparation we already do. I don't know a single LDS person worried about tomorrow being the last day of the world.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<In fact, a few months ago, a senior leader of the LDS Church gave a sermon and discouraged members from stockpiling weapons as part of the general preparation they encourage.>> And yet you have no idea how many members didn't listen and stockpiled anyway. <<I don't know a single LDS person worried about tomorrow being the last day of the world.>> Playing semantics, I see. You're at least acquainted with Donny. He is definitely a prepper. He stole a bulletproof vest from the Air Force and has proudly made it part of his weapons cache. He hates the government yet always works for them. He watches and reads Fox News every day. And faithfully believes the GOP talking points they give him about how the Evil Socialist Democrats are going to destroy the nation. You might not personally be aware of fellow LDS members who are preppers, but I'm confident that you do know members who secretly believe and keep it to themselves.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <nd yet you have no idea how many members didn't listen and stockpiled anyway.> Either do you. Why don't you take your hatred toward the LDS church and assume the worst, as you are prone to do.
Originally Posted By utahjosh There are "extremists" in any group. Don't judge the group by the actions of an extreme few.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Anyway, this topic was about what to do when you think someone is mentally ill or a potentially dangerous individual. Not topic 9,000 about the comings and goings on the LDS, so can we get back on topic please?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Why don't you take your hatred toward the LDS church and assume the worst, as you are prone to do.>> Completely uncalled for, Josh, telling me I 'hate' Mormons. I asked a question earlier about how what percentage of Mormons were possibly preppers, but I didn't get an answer. With at least 75% of Mormons consistently voting Republican and 66% leaning conservative, and at least 98% of preppers voting as conservative Republicans or Independents, it's a logical question to ask. You're not going to find any preppers hanging out in liberal Unitarian congregations, certainly. But you're probably going to find several at any given LDS church, simply based on statistical chance. It's got nothing to do with 'hate.'
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I guess not, Kar2oonMan! Let the Mormon debate continue. Apparently our religious tolerance is slipping a little. Good thing the world ends tomorrow and along with it this ongoing discussion. See ya'll in Heaven or Hell or Nowhere, depending on your leanings.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox If you wish to discuss the mentally ill, I'm all for it. (Sorry for taking the low road again.) I'm hoping that the mental health issue will be better addressed when ACA takes full effect in 2014. I'd like to see more comprehensive coverage in the national exchange for mental health care. But I'm not holding my breath. Even highly rated organizations like Kaiser Permanente California (5 out of 5 stars for their Medicare Advantage program as awarded by CMS) have weakened their psychiatric services the past decade, so much so that the American Psychological Association sent a letter of complaint to the CEO about the appalling lack of adequate care for even their most vulnerable patients. Apparently it takes on average 2-3 weeks for an initial appt, and anywhere from 2-6 weeks for follow-up visits, even when medical necessity dictates shorter wait times. This flies directly in the face of tougher laws enacted in the state for shortening wait times for HMO members, given that they're held hostage in the closed network, unable to see other providers outside the system. If someone is in the beginning of a psychotic breakdown, 2-3 weeks is too long. And if someone's medication is no longer cutting it or is causing detrimentally serious side effects (not that uncommon, btw), 2-6 weeks is also way too long. And it's become standard practice to restrict follow-up visits to approx. once a month, even for psychotic patients, or to push patients into cheaper 'group therapy' when individual therapy would be the far more effective choice. The report is an excellent Google Doc to read if you're not hopelessly stuck in a Kaiser plan you'd like to escape from: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/blnrp4k" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/blnrp4k</a> The part that disturbs me most in light of this report, is how highly regarded Kaiser is by our lawmakers and Medicare/Medicaid administrators in CMS and HHS. They look to Kaiser as a model to emulate for 'fixing' our dysfunctional health care system. YIKES!! =8^0 If this shameful lack of mental health care where clinics are deliberately understaffed to pump up the bottom line, is the model that HHS holds up as a way to 'fix' our broken health care system, then we're all doomed.
