Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Exactly. The whole point of Deism is to address that there is a God/Force/Architect/Spirit ( not ours... Hah), but the belief in it isn't one in religion, per say, but a belief in that is the force behind all action and reaction in the universe.>> You know what that sounds like? The Force
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>You know what that sounds like? The Force.<<< I know. That alone, swayed me. The fact that Jefferson, Adams, and Washington were Deists helped, too. ;-)
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Exactly. The whole point of Deism is to address that there is a God/Force/Architect/Spirit ( not ours... Hah), but the belief in it isn't one in religion, per say, but a belief in that is the force behind all action and reaction in the universe. It's...rational. << Rational like the version of the New Testament (or the Gospels?) that Jefferson "edited" to remove all the supernatural stuff. Got a chance to see his copy at the Smithsonian. Good grief, they have so many neat things there.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> if the show was 72 hours long - maybe they could deal with complexities of everything from Deism to Masonic influences... but in a theme park setting I feel they do fine with a montage of quick hits that stirs patriotism and is intended to do nomore than that. << I get that, and like I said for what it aspires to do, the show is very successful. But I also feel like a theme park might not be the appropriate setting for this kind of material *if* it inherently is going to require the dumbing-down of the material.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> AA isn't partisan. AA isn't ignoring the fact there have been great tragedies and injustices in our country ... just that our spirit is to try and overcome them and be the best. << Spirit, you're more sophisticated than that. Historical accounts are always partisan. Just because the American Adventure chooses to play the "official" history card doesn't mean it isn't extremely selective, and ultimately partisan. Hell, even the location of the American pavilion in the center of World Showcase is a kind of architectural argument about American exceptionalism. As for the show, it does what it does well. But as an obvious example, I don't recall the show mentioning that so many of the Founders were slaveholders. Yet if we want to pretend like these *guys* put "liberty" above all else...well, that requires a little explaining. I get that it's *just* a theme park attraction, but it also reinforces a message that perhaps isn't accurate.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Sure. He was a great writer and observer. BUT ... I don't see his inclusion or even his presentation as insidious or even whitewashing. They took his personality traits and had him narate a very broad (and obviously) positive view of the creation of our nation. << That's the point. They took a hardened cynic and stuck him in a sentimental history show. I don't get the impression that Twain had any illusions about this country, certainly not to the extent that he would endorse a romanticized story about our nation's origins.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>Rational like the version of the New Testament (or the Gospels?) that Jefferson "edited" to remove all the supernatural stuff. Got a chance to see his copy at the Smithsonian. Good grief, they have so many neat things there.<<< I NEED to get back to DC. Awesome, Leo. How were those Smithsonian Bathrooms?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>Spirit, you're more sophisticated than that. Historical accounts are always partisan. Just because the American Adventure chooses to play the "official" history card doesn't mean it isn't extremely selective, and ultimately partisan. Hell, even the location of the American pavilion in the center of World Showcase is a kind of architectural argument about American exceptionalism.<< And in that, it's always important to remember that History, is always told by the winners, and in that, there is bias. Especially when it deals with something that happened longer than 20 years ago....suddenly, in this "modern era", it's in vogue to record History without bias. And on the note of the AmerAdv being at the center of WS: It was HOTLY debated about when EPCOT was in the planning stages. It was thought to be arrogant if they put it in, distant and prejudice without. They originally wanted to shove it in Future World, and have it act as a gate to WS. (I'll link to that at the end of my post) Finally, they did, what I feel was right...Put America at the center, and call it the host. That's not arrogant...We ARE in the U.S. after all. Here's AA in 1978... It's that wheel thing behind the dome that will become SSE. ;-) <a href="http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/3275839.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=45B0EB3381F7834D66A523B22F8BAB09DA804E8419D0174C8D143FD4AE7FC81B" target="_blank">http://cache2.asset-cache.net/...AE7FC81B</a> Here's a image of ALL of 1978 EPCOT: <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tvgcmHMRG-U/SCeXVzigy7I/AAAAAAAAAOo/Ixrj5uUAYzg/s400/Epcot_1978_.jpg" target="_blank">http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tvgc...978_.jpg</a> Cool stuff here. Dome SSE, AA in Future World, The Land is in FW East, Space sits in it's ORIGINAL spot, on The Seas, and only UoE retains it's original shape and space, so that it can effectively use it's solar panels.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >> if the show was 72 hours long - maybe they could deal with complexities of everything from Deism to Masonic influences... but in a theme park setting I feel they do fine with a montage of quick hits that stirs patriotism and is intended to do nomore than that. << I get that, and like I said for what it aspires to do, the show is very successful. But I also feel like a theme park might not be the appropriate setting for this kind of material *if* it inherently is going to require the dumbing-down of the material. --------------------- the way I see it in EPCOT though - the country shows all have to try and provide a capsule overview of certain poins - in theory to those who may not be aware of some things. I don't think the American Adventure was meant to be an educational tool for US citizens, but a source of pride and an overview for those from other countries. Take any country in EPCOT and they present a quick overview. sometimes very stereotypical... as they have about 12 minutes or so to do so..
Originally Posted By vbdad55 That's the point. They took a hardened cynic and stuck him in a sentimental history show. I don't get the impression that Twain had any illusions about this country, certainly not to the extent that he would endorse a romanticized story about our nation's origins. ---- yet the man was quite the conundrum-- he was synical but much of that may have had to do with the man handled his money and investments very poorly and was usually broke. and while he was an ardent speaker in social issues, he also wrote books like Connecticut Yankee in which the main character represented America and it's inventions etc.. I won't go into more but an an English major when I was an undergad I spent a lot of time on the social issus that drove writers in the UK and US especially... they were the speakers many times for the populace for social change and / or tweaking, but few were anarchists against their own country for instance. Yes I think Twain would have seen this as an exhibition of flag waving, but I also think he would revel in the fact that there are clips of MLK and what he drove to accomplish also. As a man who really was fascinated by technology - highlighting people he knew like Edison also key... So in the long run, although none of us knows exactly what he would think, and I hate playing that game, whether it's about Walt or anyone else -- there are parts of this that are also consistent with what he deemed important about America as well
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer I wonder what will happen with his Autobiography, now that it's being published 100 years prior to his death.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I wasn't sick, I got dizzy & fell on the floor! & my rude parents didn't even try to help me up! It was really funny!! << So how many of the beer kiosks did you stop at before you watched the film?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> It's the same mentality that allows Glenn Beck to talk about the Founding Fathers like he can read their minds. << Why can't he? Hillary Clinton can channel Elanore Roosevelt.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Beck is a figment of our current polarized crazy post-9/11 nation. Forgetting about his hatred, which is pretty front and center, the ignorance of the man is pretty amazing ... so the fact that many of our Founding Fathers were athiests suddenly becomes we're a nation built in a strong belief in God. I actually watched Glen Beck on several 1 am rebrodcasts because of statements you made like this. It was very dull, and boring. I don't see why anyone would watch. The one thing I never saw was all of this hatred you talk about. Exactly where can I find this hate speach? Are you trying to equate disagreement to your political philosphys with hate? Name the atheist Founding Fathers please. Anybody who doesn't think we are a Nation founded on a strong Judeo Christian belief is very out of touch with the United States of America. I'm afraid your philosofical beliefs are getting in the way of your judgement.
Originally Posted By A Happy Haunt <<So how many of the beer kiosks did you stop at before you watched the film?>> NONE!! I'm just a dizzy brunette!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I don't want to get into politics. Would rather talk poo. << The simple solution would be, don't then. You know I'm obligated to respond everytime you go on one of these left wing rants of yours.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper Beck is a cartoon character. not saying that they don't exist on both sides, but it's scary that people actually think to the extreme that guy does.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Deists, actually. << I love Historians. Now name the Deist, and tell us what they actually said about the seperatiopn of God, and the founding of this great country. While we are specificly forbiden by our Constitution to have a Government sponsorship of any one certain religion, it has absolutely nothing to do with the role God played in the founding of this great Nation. I suggest everybody should read biographys of all the Founding Fathers. You will be very surprised. My God how I love this country with a passion. Even with all of it's flaws.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Products of the Enlightenment and the age of reason. << You've been reading Ayn Rand again. ""The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."
