Originally Posted By MPierce >> ----nor do I think they are really trying to..It's rally round the flag boys type imagery for the most part- and quick hits that hopefully will inspire kids to put down the ipod and maybe look up some of the incidents covered and read about them... not sure how that can be bad. << For the most part I believe that is the only way we can be rescued from the path we are headed down now.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> But ... my point was if you listen to the faaaar right talking heads you'd believe the country was founded to be a Christian nation and not one with a serious seperation of church and state and NO state religion. << You folks on the left need to quit quoting the Russian Constitution. They are the ones that call for a seperation of church, and state. You did get the second part right though. The 1st Amendment to the Constitution states " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Exactly. The whole point of Deism is to address that there is a God/Force/Architect/Spirit ( not ours... Hah), but the belief in it isn't one in religion, per say, but a belief in that is the force behind all action and reaction in the universe. It's...rational. << Mr Spock would be proud of you.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> but also not one with NO religious beliefs as the faaar left would have you believe-- just the fact that separation was the intent from day 1 - yes. << A basic fact that some how always gets over looked by the far left.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Having done a lot of reading on Knights Templar and more modern day the Masons and their influence in the early formation of our country... they had far more influence than any one sect...they were relisious believing in an all pwerful entity, just not choosing to annoint one over another ( readers digest version that Leo will likely go nuts on ;-) ) << I have read several articles, and seen several programs on the matter. My father was a Mason most of his life. I never could pry anything from him though.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Name the atheist Founding Fathers please. Anybody who doesn't think we are a Nation founded on a strong Judeo Christian belief is very out of touch with the United States of America. I'm afraid your philosofical beliefs are getting in the way of your judgement.<<< We already established that Atheist was too harsh a word, and in fact, they were Deists.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I know. That alone, swayed me. The fact that Jefferson, Adams, and Washington were Deists helped, too. ;-) << I merely say if you believe that I suggest you read The Writings of George Washington, published in the 1830s. Also pick up the works of Jared Sparks (1789-1866), a noted writer and historian. Sparks historical productions included not only the writing of George Washington (12 volumes) but also Benjamin Franklin (10 volumes) and Constitution signer Gouverneur Morris (3 volumes). Additionally, Sparks compiled the Library of American Biography (25 volumes), The Diplomatic Correspondence of the American Revolution (12 volumes), and the Correspondence of the American Revolution (4 volumes). In all, Sparks was responsible for some 100 historical volumes. Additionally, Sparks was America's first professor of history--other than ecclesiastical history--to teach at the college level in the United States, and he was later chosen president of Harvard.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Rational like the version of the New Testament (or the Gospels?) that Jefferson "edited" to remove all the supernatural stuff. Got a chance to see his copy at the Smithsonian. Good grief, they have so many neat things there. << You could spend a lifetime at the Smithsonian, and never see it all. It's worth a trip to that God forsaken city just to spend time there. Time for a break.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>I love Historians. Now name the Deist, and tell us what they actually said about the seperatiopn of God, and the founding of this great country. While we are specificly forbiden by our Constitution to have a Government sponsorship of any one certain religion, it has absolutely nothing to do with the role God played in the founding of this great Nation. I suggest everybody should read biographys of all the Founding Fathers. You will be very surprised. My God how I love this country with a passion. Even with all of it's flaws.<<< Adams, Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, they ALL were Deists, and Washington was a Mason. It's reflected in their writings, and can be seen even in the drafts and final draft of the Declaration of Independence. On the matter of "Separation of God", there is not such a thing. Deists believe that there is a God/Force/Spirit/Grand Architect of the Universe that is the reason for everything and what sets everything in motions. It looks beyond the "myth" and allegories for religion, and looks for the reason behind everything. That's usually found in the power of human thought and of nature. That'a the driving force/God/Architect. There is no separation from it. I've written on this subject... Here are some of the sources, which I think will answer some questions. <a href="http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html#Jefferson" target="_blank">http://freethought.mbdojo.com/...efferson</a> <a href="http://citizentom.com/2008/09/10/deism-and-the-founding-fathers/" target="_blank">http://citizentom.com/2008/09/...fathers/</a> <a href="http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm" target="_blank">http://www.earlyamericanhistor...hers.htm</a> <a href="http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sullivan-county.com...bate.htm</a> Back to packing.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> You've been reading Ayn Rand again. ""The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."<<< I don't follow, Piece.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>A basic fact that some how always gets over looked by the far left.<<< So why does the far right think that everything in America is Christian?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >> I merely say if you believe that I suggest you read The Writings of George Washington, published in the 1830s. Also pick up the works of Jared Sparks (1789-1866), a noted writer and historian. Sparks historical productions included not only the writing of George Washington (12 volumes) but also Benjamin Franklin (10 volumes) and Constitution signer Gouverneur Morris (3 volumes). Additionally, Sparks compiled the Library of American Biography (25 volumes), The Diplomatic Correspondence of the American Revolution (12 volumes), and the Correspondence of the American Revolution (4 volumes). In all, Sparks was responsible for some 100 historical volumes. Additionally, Sparks was America's first professor of history--other than ecclesiastical history--to teach at the college level in the United States, and he was later chosen president of Harvard<< I've read touches of his work. It;s great. And I know what it proves. Yes, they WERE religious, but the fact that they were Deists in addition to having their own religious beliefs says something. Really...packing...
Originally Posted By MPierce >> As for the show, it does what it does well. But as an obvious example, I don't recall the show mentioning that so many of the Founders were slaveholders. Yet if we want to pretend like these *guys* put "liberty" above all else...well, that requires a little explaining. I get that it's *just* a theme park attraction, but it also reinforces a message that perhaps isn't accurate. << You must put history in the context of the time slaveholding was a natural part of life. It was practice by all cultures around the world. It was not exclusive to the colonies. Africans themselves have always, and still do practice slavery. What you are deoing is judging the Founding Fathers out of the historical setting they grew up in. You can not compare the United States then by saying it was morally wrong. Because it wasn't in that time frame.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> They took his personality traits and had him narate a very broad (and obviously) positive view of the creation of our nation. << AA is suppose to be inspiring. Not a cynical left wing view of everything is wrong with America. The pavilion is center because it is the host, and welcoming country. Honestly would you want the greastest, and most powerful nation in the history of the World shoved off to another position because of a worry that we might appear arrogant?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> And in that, it's always important to remember that History, is always told by the winners, and in that, there is bias. Especially when it deals with something that happened longer than 20 years ago....suddenly, in this "modern era", it's in vogue to record History without bias. << And there are those that are attemting to rewrite History because of their bias.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>You must put history in the context of the time slaveholding was a natural part of life. It was practice by all cultures around the world. It was not exclusive to the colonies. Africans themselves have always, and still do practice slavery. What you are deoing is judging the Founding Fathers out of the historical setting they grew up in. You can not compare the United States then by saying it was morally wrong. Because it wasn't in that time frame.<<< But it was beginning to be thought of as wrong, thank goodness. >>>> AA is suppose to be inspiring. Not a cynical left wing view of everything is wrong with America. The pavilion is center because it is the host, and welcoming country. Honestly would you want the greastest, and most powerful nation in the history of the World shoved off to another position because of a worry that we might appear arrogant?<<< Agreed in full! YAY!!! BIPARTISANSHIP!!!! ;-)
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>And there are those that are attemting to rewrite History because of their bias.<<< Rewrite, or trying to shed more light on the past? But what you imply is something I do not like at all.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I don't think the American Adventure was meant to be an educational tool for US citizens, but a source of pride and an overview for those from other countries. Take any country in EPCOT and they present a quick overview. sometimes very stereotypical... as they have about 12 minutes or so to do so.. << Absolutely! It was meant to inspire like all of EPCOT Center was meant to do.
