Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Frankly, I think the whole Californian reaction about this thing is racist. But who cares what I think? I’m not a resident. But you guys better think up a better rationalization for your hatred to tell outsiders, because your present excuses don’t hold up to anyone on the outside looking in.<< I love it when some who is getting screwed and complains is called a hateful racist.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I do not for a moment believe that this is a harbinger of ultimate destruction for the American union, or the State of California. I believe in the law, and I believe the law will prevail.<< You optimist you! What's the saying? An optimist believes that we live in the best possible world, the pessimist fears that this is true?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Why are corporations allowed to break the law and continue to hire these illegal aliens?<< 1) Because the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chamber of Commerce. 2) Because the Democrats see illegals as future supporters of the party, but they need jobs until that time.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<>>I do not for a moment believe that this is a harbinger of ultimate destruction for the American union, or the State of California. I believe in the law, and I believe the law will prevail.<< You optimist you!>> All kidding aside, we as a nation are undergoing a transformation unlike any we have ever experienced before. It is also happening at a time where the Federal gov't is facing huge unfunded future liabilities (SS, medicare, servicing the debt). Many B-School profs say that the end of the nation state is at hand, that it's obsolete. Some even believe that the nation state will be replaced by mega corporations (think of a conglomerate like Mobile-IBM-Toyota-WalMart) with incomes measured in the trillion dollar range, and that these behemoths will issue their own currency, replacing the nation state currencies altogether.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Why are corporations allowed to break the law and continue to hire these illegal aliens? If they would enforce the laws already on the books against these corporations, then the number of employers hiring illegals would go down, jobs for American citizens would increase, and there would be no incentive for them to cross illegally, get a job and send the money back to Mexico. The problem would be much easier to control.> I think this is exactly right and as long as this one crucial element is left out, all the other proposals out there, even if enacted, will be about as successful as rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It's also the one element least likely to be implemented, as there's just too much of an appetite for illegal alien labor on the part of businesses (and often, private individuals). Me, I favor very tough laws with teeth for people hiring illegal aliens, to deal with the demand side, while also making it easier to immigrate LEGALLY (cmpaley is quite right on the difficulty). But you can't have one without the other. If they could really enact both, the now-legal immigrants would be taxed (completely, not just partially as is often the case) and thus contribute to the services provided. Employers could not get away with paying less than minimum wage, which would be good for both the immigrants and American workers.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>They are NOT immigrants. Immigration is a well established legal porcedure.<< Immigration (in this context) is simply the movement of people from one country to another. Regardless of whether it is done legally or not, it is immigration. So far I have seen no advocates for illegal immigration on this board. >>The problem is, under the current set of laws, it is nearly impossible to enter the country legally.<< I find that the information I gave before has been supplanted. From the Wikipedia: >>The 1990 Immigration Act (IMMACT) -- Modified and expanded the 1965 act; it significantly increased the total immigration limit to 700,000 and increased visas by 40 percent. Family reunification was retained as the main immigration criteria with significant increases in employment-related immigration.<< >>Legal immigration to the U.S. soared from 2.5 million in the 1950s to 4.5 million in the 1970s to 7.3 million in the 1980s to about 10 million in the 1990s. After 2000 legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 legal immigrants per year of which about 600,000 are Change of Status immigrants who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever at over 35,000,000 legal immigrants.<< <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I mmigration_to_the_United_States#Laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization</a> I find it hard to accept that it was "nearly impossible" for 35 million people to legally immigrate to the US. That is more than 10 per cent of the present population. >>Now, if we were to fix the system...<< Be careful what you wish for. Some feel that "fixing" the system is a simple matter of enforcing and supporting existing laws. >>Why are corporations allowed to break the law and continue to hire these illegal aliens? If they would enforce the laws already on the books...<< This is exactly what vigilante groups like the Minutemen and SOS would say. Simply enforce the existing laws. (Some, of course, wish to go beyond existing law and into new territory.) Lincoln, of course, had an interesting take on this: "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." >>What's the saying? An optimist believes that we live in the best possible world, the pessimist fears that this is true?<< I am most definitely a glass-half-full optimist, yet I know we definitely are NOT living in the best of all possible worlds. >>...the Republican party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chamber of Commerce.<< Hmph. If that's true, why hasn't the Chamber kicked anything my way lately?
Originally Posted By YourPalEd Sorry, cmpaley, i thought you were a pope or at least a bishop, with all that praying you say you do. Commendable.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd I guess catholic praying absolves the mexicans. I wonder why islamic praying isn't as acceptable?
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<By the way, when the slur "illegal Mexicans" is used, it's not meant as a distinction between legal immigrants from Mexico and illegal ones. It's a slam against Mexicans. Mexico is described as a "hellhole" and worse.>>> Yes, but are we responsible for all the world's hellholes? Or only the ones we create?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>Why are corporations allowed to break the law and continue to hire these illegal aliens? If they would enforce the laws already on the books...<< Note that that enforcement has dropped under Bush: <a href="http://www.house.gov/list/press/ed31_democrats/rel81406.html" target="_blank">http://www.house.gov/list/pres s/ed31_democrats/rel81406.html</a> "Over the past six years, the Bush administration’s enforcement of immigration laws and border security has drastically declined: • Staffing cuts in the agency that oversees the enforcement of immigration laws against employers have reduced both enforcement resources and audits of employers. The number of agents working on worksite immigration enforcement was cut from 240 agents in 1999 to just 90 agents in 2003. • In 2004 only three fines were initiated against employers in violation of immigration laws, a drop of 99 percent compared with the 417 fines initiated under President Clinton. • Immigration fraud enforcement has dropped by 78 percent. In 1995, under President Clinton, 6,455 immigration fraud investigations were completed. In contrast, there were only 1,389 immigration fraud investigations completed in 2003. • Under President Bush, the conviction rate for criminal investigations has been an astoundingly low 6 percent. In 2004, only 4,007 out of nearly 59,000 criminal immigration investigations initiated by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency resulted in conviction; including human smuggling, trafficking, illegal employment, identity fraud, and criminal alien investigations. "
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<Interestingly, I think we can learn something about democracy from the Mexicans right now. They are demanding that their votes actually be COUNTED. Would that us Americans did that with as much fervor.>>> I think what happens to big industry doesn't matter much to educated americans anymore, we are too spoiled to care. I don't need to leave my house. I have a computer, and know how to build them with ease. I can juggle most software, and load and unload, copy. Guess what, so can 150 million other people in this country. You got your computer your coffee, we are happy. Other people want us still to crave all that useless stuff. Crystal clear pictures are almost always good enough for me, accept for a few utilities. Why is mexico not able to grow economically is the problem we should study, and try to help solve. People, who go to disneyland, just a few miles away is dangerous territory, and everyone who lives there knows it. You will find a few pockets of asian, decent, rare if any blacks though. Mexicans hate blacks and persecute them in mexican areas like anaheim. The reason our school systems are failing is because of villaragosa. His plan is to allow the illegal alien mexican students to stay and use american taxpayers school supplies to educate children of admitted known criminals. Anyone willing to take an alias to survive is usually considered a spy, and when this occurs, then i would start to really complain loudly to your congresspeople, and senators. Sure there are good home owners in anaheim, who own homes not covered in graffiti yet, but i guarantee you, those homeowners, are very careful, not a republican liberal with arms open. A real liberal doesn't trust anyone.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<Hyprocy in action. I seem to remember the Clinton Administration delaying a shipment of military absentee ballots ( four pallets worth ) overseas to prevent them from being counted in the 2000 Presidential election.>>> We saw it on channel 2 cbs in los angeles, The republican military ballots were given special treatment, and minor problesm fixed so they would count, while the democratic votes were discarded, even without any infractions. It was illegally stopped in court and censored out of our news, while the criminal and known traitor, george bush, took over our government, and world, even though he lost with only 33 percent of the vote. s cast their votes early from the military, and it was the dems trying to speed up the shipment., who wanted to make sure everyone had enough ballots.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<Legality doesn't mean much of anything. Almost all of us violate laws every single day of our life. There is nothing sacred about the law, especially when it is largely disregarded by those it attempts to control (speed laws for instance).>>> Personally, i try to follow all laws, and only commit minor infractions. Traveling 100's of miles to impose yourself on a country, that you already know has strict rules, is an affront to that society. They want all the benifits of a controlled society with laws, that allow science, but they don't want to have to follow those laws. If you think that an illegal alien, has an alien right to steal from the wealthy, then you really are no different than the traitor, george bush, and i don't want to hear you belly aching about him anymore.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>You America-hating "il-AY-guhl al-EEN" lover, you!<< CM, I find it interesting that you often get into a lather over people making generalizations, yet you yourself have no problem implying that anyone who opposes illegal immigration must be some sort of slack jawed hick.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Note that that enforcement has dropped under Bush:<< We don't even need new laws, just need to enforce the existing ones. But the Chamber of Commerce needs cheap labor, and since these workers will eventually be amnestied, the Dems just keep quiet about it as well. Its a sweet deal for business. Super cheap labor and the taxpayers pick up the bill for everything else.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<I think allowing illegals in has its immoral side: 1) It makes the rich richer at the expense of everyone else. 2) It displaces unskilled American workers from their jobs, as they are displaced by lower paid illegals.>>> Bingo!!! Ding Ding Ding I mean and the republicans are proving this, cause almost any republican could do a quick check on villairagosa's past and find 1,000 crimes he hasn't been prosecuted for yet. So, obviously, what they want is a new group of workers/consumers, who are the last to want or experience the products these industries still make. Products intelligent americans stopped using years ago. It is the only way tv, and it's industries can survive. Otherwise if they have to deal with intelligent white workers of america, they can't scream at them. Americans work out of their homes now for no one. If someone tells me they are working, i have little respect for them, it means they are working for someone else. Which means they are not worth anything but a debit, that has ever changing value, like our money. Some people think military helps stabalize the value of the money. Some people steal money by destablizing it, and then charging more for their products. You have only played a game you have created for yourself, and have lost your soul. So unhappy, so easy, so sad. Find the joy of rebirth. Your cynicism isn't the end, it's the beginning of your youth! Love all of life, and hate those that hate, and do not care, and then forgive them, just stay away from them, or figure out a way to keep them away. You are the ones with the disney higher ideals, not they. They are the ones, who only know how to take advantage, with the returns only going to more parasites like them.
Originally Posted By YourPalEd <<<I do not for a moment believe that this is a harbinger of ultimate destruction for the American union, or the State of California. I believe in the law, and I believe the law will prevail.>>> I believe this is the start of dealing with the situation a little more honestly than bush would want us to. If you lived here a few weeks, you would understand the constant insults endured by the supposed needy, that are really criminals.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 what intresting reading, but I have to go now, I am busy packing up our gang members to go to Minneapolis... we're selling them on the weather...
Originally Posted By YourPalEd I remember i was lost in chicago after getting drunk on one of those disco places, in the summer of '81. I crossed over a river, and a major highway, and suddenly the neighborhood changed from tall buildings and discos filled with white women, to hordes of black people standing in groups of 6 or so on each and every corner i was driving past. They stared at me, i made a left, and drove back to LSD as soon as possible. LSD - Lake Shore Drive. So then i come out to california and i get treated to some lakers games at the forum. All white crowd. Only the basketball team had black people. I made a wrong turn (i am so glad is stopped drinking, for over 14 years now), and ended up like watts, or 180th or 110 and fairfax or something. Same thing happened lots of people hanging out on street corners, all black staring at me. I turned around and after i passed martin luther king blvd., everything started to become mexican, and then soon it was all white again. Phew, i could relax, i was safe. I rushed upstairs to my computer and immediately posted a report on how racist america has become and how they should be ashamed of themselves. Turning on seinfeld, i blindly reached for another grape. But before i could place the grape in my mouth, i fell asleep on the couch.
