Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<I think Philharmagic will be a fine addition to TDL. Although it might have been better to use the space for something else, it's a vast improvement over MMR. Man, is that thing dated! And, I think the whole notion of it being bad to repeat attractions from other parks is misplaced. Some people were upset about Soarin' coming to EPCOT, and we've heard several other examples. But is anyone upset that there are several instances of Space Mountain, BTMRR, POTC, HM, or Splash Mountain? Those are quintessential, anchor attractions for a MK (except the franchise one ). If some of the minor attractions get repeated as well, so be it. It's not as if the parks are all identical clones of each other. This notion of "there's no reason for me to travel all over the globe to visit Disney parks if the attractions are going to be repeated" is very misplaced. I would have to think that that is extremely low on the priority list when making decisions. Do you really think that OLC is considering how many additional foreign guests it will get depending on whether it adds a new attraction vs one that's also in other parks? I'd also ask the same question about actual foreign visitor numbers. It's just down in the noise.>> Well stated SD and I agree 100%. First off, PhilharMagic IS a good attraction, despite people's individuals tastes. If it wasnt, it wouldnt be going in period. I personnally love it as well and only saw it at HKDL and it was the highlight of my trip. Of course, it was BECAUSE it was the only cloned attraction in the park that I have never experienced ironically. So, I understand what people are saying from that perspective. But I can't expect a park to cater to *my* needs, but the needs of their real guest at the end of the day. I dont like HKDL for the very reason it doesnt have a single original thing in that park while acknowledging it will be completely new and different experiences for 95% of the people who visits the place and likely more often than me. So while I would LOVE HKDL to get something different from othe parks (or at least the BETTER cloned stuff like SM or Winnie the Pooh), it's understandable the park will build stuff that is very popular and familair from other parks and stuff that has been proven to 'work'. And Philharmagic is the same thing, it works and it will bring an attraction probably 95% of the guest have never expereinced. Look, we are the 5% of the Disney fanbase--the group that has actually experienced more than ONE Disney theme park or what we would consider the local or closes one. So, we have to put it in that perspective. I been to every resort around the world, yet, my own family has only been to DL in Anaheim. I talked up for YEARS how TOT was a great ride and wish they could ride it. Now they can . To me it would be a shame if another Disney park didnt get a TOT or a SM or a POTC because it's been 'done' before or the veeeery few of us cry foul because we are *gasp*, fortunate enough to be able travel to more than one park to cry foul in the first place. But like SD said, we never seen to argue about the 'classics'. No one ever gets up in arms when another MK park is dooling out another tired retread of SM or POTC lol. In fact with HKDL, we all complain about the park not being original enough, but at the same time pushing for a POTC or HM there, like the park isnt complete without those things. We all argued that those attractions shouldve been there first day. Why?? Sholdnt we be pushing for ORIGINAL attractions there that is not in ANY park, first day or not? And I'm not comparing PhilharMagic to POTC lol, just saying you have to put it into perspective that's all. Yes, Philharmagic is a clone and I ALSO fer the 'walmarting' of the parks in general (who came up with that term great one lol), but a good one and something I suspect most people will instantly love in TDR, that's why its coming. And to be fair, TDR has done a fairly good job of original attractions vs clones. TDL was nothing but DL and MK combined for most of its existance, but TDS changed all that. Only ONE clone attraction at opening, Indiana Jones, which again, no complaints lol. Everything about that place was original. And let's not forget Monsters Inc will be coming to TDL as well, something everyone seems to be drooling here over, so its mix and match. That's fine with me. That said though, I will kind of miss MMR lol. I actually go all the time I visit because it is one of the few 'original' attractions left, but its soooo outdated lol. If they at least changed the film strip at the beginning (maybe that part could've been a new small 3D film, hmmmm) then it would make sense to keep it. But it doesnt seem all that popular anymore. I never wait more than one show cycle to enter (and probably why I always catch it when I go lol). And I also did the Mystery Tour (just once though and because I knew it was closing so decided to try it) and Meet the World. Meet the World was a joke, but the Mystery tour was at least original and different. Too bad they couldnt keep it although I dont know how popular it really was in the end. There always seem to be a line for it though, one of the reasons I never bothered . Wow, I cant believe I did all the original rides in the park. Didnt realize that until I saw this thread .
Originally Posted By Anatole69 There is a difference between cloning a movie based attraction and an animatronic one, or ride based one. The movie clone is going to be the same in every park, because the movie never changes. This is also why it grows stale really quick, not enough to experience multiple times... it's the same fixed sound and image in the same fixed square area. With a ride or animatronic attraction, you can change it a little from park to park so that it's still the same ride, but slightly different. In my mind, it isn't a clone at that point, just a paternal twin. haha. Also the sensory experience is much richer, since the area it encompases is 360 degrees, and much of the ride occurs random enough to make it seem different everytime. The animatronics run on loops, so you might get them at the middle and or near the end. The two experiences don't even match up in the long run, one exhausts itself very quickly while the other has a much longer shelf life. - Anatole
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^I'm not disagreeing with you and that's why I moaned so much about DCA since that sucker opened with FIVE freaking movies on opening day, FIVE!!! On top of that, four of them were freaking cloned from WDW alone *sigh*. And Epocot, dont get me started lol. A friend dubbed World Showcase once as 'National Geographic Megaplex' lol. But ask yourself this, how many films are in TDL now? One How many are in TDS? One and that's a mixture of live action WITH a 3D film. So while ALL of that is true, the truth is having one or two films at a park and when they are GOOD is fine, that's all I'm really saying here. Yes, they will lose interest faster than say a POTC, but I guarantee you any good 3D film is better than any horrible ride based one any day of the week and will see more traffic regardless (I'm aiming my knives solely at you Winnie the Pooh....in Anaheim of course ). And how much does it cost to bring Philharmagic to life and how much does it cost for that sorry ride? Ride based, like film based ones, are only as good as they are designed to be. If a film is done right, it will have a long life just like if a ride is done bad, it will have a short one, although I agree with you all things being equal the ride will win out everytime and should. Again though, TDL has over 40 ride based attractions and one film. It can handle O-N-E more IMO. And it stills come back to the point the overwelming majority have never seen this, so clone or not, it will probably be very popular the first few years AS its very popular at WDW and HKDL. I guess what people are saying here is that Disney just shouldn't make anymore film attractions? Because its sounds like thats basically the argument when you get pass the cloning issue.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Okay, just to sum up my thoughts lol: A. I think Philharmagic is a GREAT attraction, film or not, period and something everyone should experience. B. While yes, it's a clone, the overwelming majority will not have seen this and hence will be very new and special for them. It's also only in WDW and HKDL.....and no one really counts HKDL anyway lol. C. I think business and marketing wise, its a GREAT move for the company. Its no secret the TDL audience are cartoon drones. Anything with Mickey, Donald, etc, they will eat it up. And I imagine throwing in an already made film is veeery cheap to have, just transforming the theater for it. In fact, I wonder why they are waiting 3 freaking years for this thing? Why not shut MMR sometime next year and have it up for 2009 or 10. D. Something that people dont take into account and it kind of just hit me as well lol, but Philharmagic is an ANIMATED 3D film. The overwelming majority of them are live action. ITTBAB is actually the only other animated 3D film at the moment, so maybe animated ones may have a little more shelf life. I know, sounds stupid lol, but I guess they are a little more unique and since this one is fillled with classic Disney music and characters, I think that's something people cant dismiss out of hand. I know people hate the fact its more tunes, but because it IS more cartoon characters is probably why it has longer playing power versus HISTA or even Timekeeper which I LOVED btw and saw in Paris, Tokyo and WDW lol. So, we'll see. Man, I feel like I turned into Philharmagics publicist lol.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara World of Disney--I don't understand part of C. in your post: Mickey Mouse Revue is closing in May 2009 and Philharmagic is opening one year later.
Originally Posted By barboy I'm with Anatole69 on the repeated attractions issue. movies: (1)Disney *replicates* them which disserves multi destination guests (2)wear out super fast for single destination guests AA rides: (1)Disney changes them(except BUZZ and Roger Rabbit) keeping the multi destination guest interested (2)last for decades for single destination guests
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara The big point here is that there's not much overlap between customers at Walt Disney World and the Tokyo Disney Resort. There's no reason not to replicate good attractions. A few dozen people bitching about it on the internet is meaningless. Truly meaningless.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<World of Disney--I don't understand part of C. in your post: Mickey Mouse Revue is closing in May 2009 and Philharmagic is opening one year later.>> Okay, cool, but someone needs to tell that to the OP who created the title for this thread .
Originally Posted By barboy ///like SD said, we never seem to argue about the 'classics'(being installed at different resorts)///. ---because the classics(Pirates x4, BTMRR x4, HM x4, Space Mountain x5, Small World x5) are never replicated/exact clones. All 22 of those rides offer the guest something fresh or at least slightly fresh. ---because those rides are going into Magic Kingdom style parks therefore guests expect to see them. As for Soarin' going to EPCOT it was a true clone; heck they couldn't even change the film which was flagrantly tailor made for Disney's *Califonia* Adventure. Epcot and DCA, obviously, are entirely differently themed parks. that's why some(like me) raised issue. I give Hightower(TOT) and IJ a pass at TDS. At least Hightower, much like Phantom Manor, deviated from its original story and IJ has a completely different elaborate queue and gives us some different scenes and effects.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara Sorry: my mistake. Philharmagic is opening in 2011. If it opens in January 2011, that would 18 months to build. OLC tends to do things right, and make sure things are running perfectly before they open. As for other attractions that are copied from park to park, the average park-goer does not notice ANY of these differences unless they are extreme, such as the last scene in Phantom Manor. It's just nit-pickers and obsessives like us.
Originally Posted By barboy ///The big point here is that there's not much overlap between customers at Walt Disney World and the Tokyo Disney Resort./// I'd take it further and say a miniscule %. Furthermore, of that very small number who do go to TDR after seeing other parks OLC knows that they only show up once per year anyway---yes I'm generalizing to amke a point.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ///like SD said, we never seem to argue about the 'classics'(being installed at different resorts)///. <<---because the classics(Pirates x4, BTMRR x4, HM x4, Space Mountain x5, Small World x5) are never replicated/exact clones. All 22 of those rides offer the guest something fresh or at least slightly fresh.>> Dude, you are just proving once again that we are NOT the typical Disney guest, I'm sorry we aren't. I remember this very well. I was showing my cousin a clip of Splash Mountain in TDL when I was home in LA and was saying TDL was better. She been to DL and Splash Mountin is her favorite ride. I was showing her pics of TDL and TDS and going on and on about how Japan's Splash is better because the lighting is much brigter, better seating, the sets are fleshed out more, etc. She turned and looked at me and just said, 'but they are the same ride.' And then she litterally shrugged wondering what I been babbling about lol. The only thing that surprised her about TDL was the fact there was a roof over Main St (yes, I know its world showcase, thats what she calls it) and that was it. You couldve put her smacked in TDL minus all the Japanese people and she wouldnt notice anything differently. And THAT'S when I realized I think waaay too much about this stuff. To the average guest, SM is SM. POTC is POTC, period. The average guest doesn't notice 90% of these differences and wouldnt care. Unconsiously they might appreciate the differences, but they arent really noticing. And lets be more frank, the majority of the people DONT fly to the other ends of the earth to see a different Disney park anyway. I have to explain to people that DLP is NOT E-X-A-C-T-L-Y like DL to begin with. They dont see the way us Disney geeks sees it. To them ALL the parks are exactly like their local one minus the language difference in terms of MK style parks. If its called IASW, then hell, it IS IASW. So lets not kid ourselves. The people who get upset over this stuff is a tiny, tiny percentage. Hell some of the people who commented in these boards have probably never BEEN to TDR, but they still somehow feel 'cheated' that OLC is putting an attraction for a park most of them will probably never see anyway. Do you see how warped we can be at times lol.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney And for the record, I'm not saying you have to LIKE Philharmagic in any way or like the fact its there. I'm not arguing that at all. All I'm saying is you have to look at it from OLC's perspective which makes ALOT of sense IMO. Some of you been to MMR, you seen the space they have to work with, Matterhorn or Finding Nemo subs is not going in there regardless. They found something that is space and theme appropriate, popular, cheap and appeals to their fanbase. Just because someone who visits the park once every 3 years is upset over it wont exactly create concern with the people who makes these decisions. They are thinking about the 'crazy fans' (havent said that in a long time lol) who would apprecieate it and can really dig a fun, unique 3D attraction. I dont see the problem with this at all and frankly surprised they didnt install it sooner.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara I think OLC thinks, as do most Japanese people, in the long term--big picture rather than NOW NOW NOW. In this case, with a unique and certainly expensive ride like Monsters Inc. opening in 2009, it makes sense to pick (for the next attraction) one that will be very popular, but costs a lot less not only to build but to maintain. Philharmagic fits all those requirements nicely. I'm just glad that I'll get to see Mickey Mouse Revue one more time in April.
Originally Posted By barboy ///Dude, you are just proving once again that we are NOT the typical Disney guest/// Oh I know, I know it alright. I've had my share of conversations too over the years with non Disney park geeks about the subtle and obvious differences within the Disney chain. ///The people who get upset over this stuff is a tiny, tiny percentage/// ---or excited over it as well I wonder if us die-hard foreign resort jumpers number less than 50,000.
Originally Posted By barboy ///And for the record, I'm not saying you have to LIKE Philharmagic in any way or like the fact its there./// Actually, I enjoy the attraction very much. And like I said earlier OLC is wise to instal it since guests will receive it with enthusiasm and it's cheaper to do than something unique. I'm just saying that I would rather something totally new since I've seen that exact same show in Magic King. and HKDL. Micks Philharm will fit nicely in that spot.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Yes, Philharmagic is a clone and I ALSO fer the 'walmarting' of the parks in general (who came up with that term great one lol),>> That would be me, yours truly. And warms the cockles of my heart to know that it is dispised inside Team Disney whenever it gets uttered. I am so proud ... like a parent! <<but a good one and something I suspect most people will instantly love in TDR, that's why its coming. And to be fair, TDR has done a fairly good job of original attractions vs clones. TDL was nothing but DL and MK combined for most of its existance, but TDS changed all that. Only ONE clone attraction at opening, Indiana Jones, which again, no complaints lol. Everything about that place was original. And let's not forget Monsters Inc will be coming to TDL as well, something everyone seems to be drooling here over, so its mix and match. That's fine with me.>> Agreed completely. And PhilharMagic was supposed to be a HKDL original. WDW poached it in the early part of the decade. Of course, HKDL was also supposed to have a couple of pretty unique thrill rides (a raft ride lifted from the Disney's America concept and a rolley coaster with onboard sound through a primeval forest, which would have replacated scenes from DAK's Dinosaur). But also the point about Disney not worrying about cloning because most folks don't travel to each and every resort is a very good one. And indeed, we all want to see Mansion and Pirates and Peter Pan etc ... in HKDL. My biggest/only gripe with Philharmagic is that at its core it is simply a movie, and these attractions don't age well (although this one will age better than say Honey, Is It Still 1991? which I don't believe is very popular at any park it currently plays in!) As I mentioned in a WDW thread, attractions like Mansion, Pirates, Peter Pan and Small World are timeless ... likely because they are immersive, tell stories, use music and setpieces and can be enjoyed if you're 8 or 98. I wonder how 'timeless' 3D films and LCI based attractions will be. My guess is not very.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara Spirit, the characters in Mickey's Philharmagic have already proven themselves to be timeless by virtue of their popularity. There are no "must-include" duds in there, inserted because they happened to be in movies coming out at the moment Philharmagic was produced. It's classic, timeless, Disney all the way, and will as popular in 30 years as it is now.
Originally Posted By barboy ///will be as popular in 30 years as it is now./// But I doubt we'll be wearing 3-d glasses in 30 years; Philharm will be techno out of date well before then.
