Originally Posted By Dabob2 You have the other Republicans. Just curious why you're behind Romney now. Because you think he has the best chance to win? Because you like his positions best? What do you like about him, and is there anything that gives you pause?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Skinner, I don't think you're being fair to vbdad55. He's more conservative than us, but so what? That's what makes the world go 'round. And he's fair minded and intelligent - just what we say we like around here.>> Most of the time, he is fair minded and intelligent. But there are other times when he is not, and has clearly accepted the GOP talking points as gospel. And lately, that has been the case.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Because you think he has the best chance to win?>> Bingo. Donny will back anyone who's strongest in the polls and has the best chance of kicking the scary black dude out of the White House.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Let's let him answer that, okay? Maybe Donny actually like's Romney's positions - like Trump he's more of a social moderate. Donny actually seemed MORE conservative to me than Trump or Romney, so I'm genuinely curious. And backing someone you think might stand a better chance of winning is not exclusive to Republicans - it's basically why a lot of Democrats went for Kerry over Dean in 2004, if you believe the polling. <But there are other times when he is not, and has clearly accepted the GOP talking points as gospel. > I don't think that's fair. Are there times he agrees with the prevailing GOP message? Sure. Not a big surprise since he IS a Republican (or was but went independent). But he's not a mindless follower.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<But he's not a mindless follower.>> I'm not certain I agree with that, actually. If you're an intelligent and logical person, you seek out information from a variety of sources, to find the truth about an issue. vbdad has swallowed the conservative talking points regarding public unions and how their pensions supposedly weren't funded through salary reductions, or that they're now bankrupting municipalities because they're too large or weren't paid for upfront, instead of this actually being the gross mismanagement of said funds for decades, which is why these cities and counties are now in trouble in paying them out. Ditching on the public unions and justifying their extinction is a big old GOP Christmas wish which generated these false talking points, which vbdad has apparently bought into. If he did bit of solid research he'd see that this is a corrupt local government problem, not a public union problem.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 vbdad has swallowed the conservative talking points regarding public unions and how their pensions supposedly weren't funded through salary reductions, or that they're now bankrupting municipalities because they're too large or weren't paid for upfront, instead of this actually being the gross mismanagement of said funds for decades, which is why these cities and counties are now in trouble in paying them out. ==== of course the fact that I sit on 2 presidential boards that meet in Washington - because of my managment position with a major corporation for 33 years that discusses pensions / benefits and hr as it relates to the country as a whole would have nothing to do with my knowledge would it skinner ? Unfortunately for you you only hear what you want to hear- and label everyone from day one. If you don't think there is some truth in what I say then it is you that are listening to the talking heads - not me... but then those who know it all usually do follow. I know more about union/labor negotiations than you could dream of unless you've spent your last 30+ years working in that field as I have. and for the record I am, registered GOP so that I can vote in the primaries in my county which is about 75% GOP- and the primaries you vote by party- cannot vote in them unless you declare. I am absolutely an independent- and spent 10 years earlier in my days working for the Democratic partty in the City of Chicago - where I still have many friends and connections.. btw - if you were a FB friend of mine you'd see many local Dem pols as personal friends ( not web site friends) these include the 3 highest offices in Illinois..my cousin the legal council for the current governor. These items I discuss are discussed at holiday parties and cross party lines... so your opinion of me couldn't be more dead wrong- but feel free to pontificate on who I am... it just shows how little you know
Originally Posted By vbdad55 so I'll leave you to Dirk / Beau etc. as really that is more who you're looking for, and more like than I care for.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 OK- really gone now- just needed to address one more time since I am so angry -
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 I am sorry you are leaving vbdad55. Even when I don't agree with you I think you have a lot to offer the conversations. I hope you will continue to pop in from time to time.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Seriously, you're leaving? Because you're angry with me? I don't get it. You're only ticked off with me, but you're going to leave behind your supporters and folks who enjoy discussing things with you, simply because I made you mad. What are you, like 10 years old? If I were to do something like that, I'd be called 'immature and childish' in a heartbeat, including you. Why are you letting your anger over what I think of you, force you to leave? Sorry, but your self-righteous indignation doesn't pass the smell test. You're supposedly better than this, from what your LP friends have stated in your defense. There's more to your exit from WE than simple indignation at my attitude towards you.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Skinner, here's my point. You know vbdad isn't in the Beau or DD categories. So if he says something you think is wrong on say, public pensions, why not engage? Why not offer facts, figures, debunk what the GOP is saying or point out the manipulations... you might even get him to think again and re-think his position, if only a little bit. (And maybe he'll even do the same for you, if only a little bit.) But if you start from "you're just a mindless drone, parroting the talking points," is that likely to make him re-think his position? Or just entrench himself in it? To me, the greatest period of WE was circa 2004-2005, and the greatest topic was Iraq. There were a lot more of us around then, and as you remember, we liberals and those questioning the war were in the minority at first. But we kept at it, and when we offered cogent arguments for why it was a terrible and misguided decision to invade that country (and didn't just call those then-supporting it "war-mongers" or something), little by little we saw people who had once supported the war come to question it, and even eventually to agree with us on how misguided and terribly handled it was. This was glacial sometimes. It literally took a couple of years. And obviously we didn't do it all by ourselves on this little message board - everyone was still watching the news and hearing new revelations, etc. etc. etc. But I had more than one person here tell me that I had started the ball rolling on getting them to reconsider their position, and it was because I tried to appeal to their reason and show WHY it was such a disastrous decision, not just yell at them for supporting it at first. We should welcome all voices here who post respectfully and follow community standards, whatever their leanings. If we disagree with the leanings, we can say so and say why, without branding.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Sorry, but your self-righteous indignation doesn't pass the smell test. You're supposedly better than this, from what your LP friends have stated in your defense. There's more to your exit from WE than simple indignation at my attitude towards you." Wait a minute- you're the same guy who wants to shut down WE because of the trolls- what's the diifference between that and vbdad's position? You're not exactly the welcome wagon yourself.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I don't get it. You're only ticked off with me, but you're going to leave behind your supporters and folks who enjoy discussing things with you, simply because I made you mad. What are you, like 10 years old? --- again proving my point- I've been around here 10 years - you ? I left W/E because of attitudes like yours- and I return a week to get hit with exactly why I left. You're right and everybody is wrong - then turn to mocking. Really- you and Beau should have a beer sometime, you're really one in the same persona, although I doubt you see that. I do not mimic the talking points of the GOP on union -taxpayer guaranted pensions..there are unaffordable models actuarially that need model changes due to how long people live after retirement. Some of the existing models models in the country- school districts for example were based on 6 month life expectancy after retirement- do you know that ? Do you care.? Many of the private companies had done the same - the one I work for being one of them as that was the life expectancy when I started in the mid 70's. Some of these models haven't been touched in 30+ years I do not believe in taking away a single thing that is vested to the people up to this point- the private sector did do that and it is wrong. funny you seem to thing you can justify what is out there in 20,000 + formats, I'm telling you that you can't. For those that are self supporting and fiscally sound- let them be- but they are fewer than you think. And most of them have been underfunded by the government entities that pay into them- but that's a different issue. there are public entities in illinois who qualify for 3 pensions - based on what vested them years of service wise-- some of these people have pensions worth $15M- $20< based on life expectancy- which is 3-5 times what they made while working. If you think that is fiscally sound and doesn't represent a certain protected elite also then I can't help you. The state of Illinois is 49th in financial health due to deals on the books like these. sorry that I call them as I see them- regardless of who's at fault. But I also have facts to support my concerns - not trying to link anyone to talking points of some rhetoric machine... But I can tell you all but the far far left and the far far right are working on solutions for these - and have been for years - I know I've been a sounding board for some of it. It's the 600 pound gorilla in the room In Illinois aside from underfunded - unsound pension plans - the governing body can only address a little over 20% of the debt. We raised state income taxes 2% here in January in the middle of a recession and the state's debt is 11% greater than it was January 1. You cannot raise enough revenue to offset the issues
Originally Posted By vbdad55 In the city of CHicago 47 cents of every tax dollar funds pensions how are they responding now ? By laying off workers - which is a much worse way of addressing in my book- but no choice over 14 000 retired st of illinois government workers collect two or more $100,000 + pensions- and many still sit on boards that pay them yearly stipends as well- put there by their pals in office. loopholes allow aberrations of pension plans to occur - and no bigger criminals than those who were in elected office-- here's an example - GOP treasurer Illinois Former Illinois Treasurer Judy Baar Topinka has one of the biggest state pensions -- and it's based on a salary she never received. That's because of another of the many peculiarities of a pension system Illinois legislators created that enriches themselves and statewide officials like Topinka, who carefully crafted an image as a fiscal conservative so cautious with a buck that she bought her clothes at thrift shops. Topinka's current yearly pension is $141,482. That's 23 percent more than what she was making when she retired from state government in January 2007. Topinka's pension isn't based on her final salary of $115,235. Instead, it's based on a salary of $130,324 -- the salary that had been set for the state treasurer's post at that time but which the Illinois Legislature didn't fund at that level until seven months after she retired, according to Timothy Blair, administrator of the General Assembly Retirement System. Legislators' pensions are based on "the salary they are entitled to, whether they are receiving it or not,'' Blair said. "She was legally entitled to it, but the raise wasn't funded until after she retired.'' For serving 20 years in state government, Topinka was entitled to a pension based on 85 percent of her final salary. But she held office -- as a state legislator and treasurer -- for just more than 26 years. So, under the state's pension system covering elected officials, she got an additional 3 percent for each year beyond 20 years in office -- a total bump of 21 percent. She has also gotten two automatic cost-of-living raises of 3 percent each -- and she'll keep getting those annual raises as long as she lives. Topinka, 65, a Republican from Riverside, didn't return calls seeking comment.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 City Hall's biggest pension doesn't go to a police superintendent, fire commissioner or even an alderman. It's paid to a former steamroller operator named Dennis J. Gannon. But Gannon's City Hall pension -- $153,649 a year -- isn't based on what he was paid as a steamroller operator and foreman for the city's Department of Streets and Sanitation. Instead, Gannon took advantage of a little-known state law that allowed him to base his taxpayer-supported pension on his much-larger salary as president of the Chicago Federation of Labor, a private organization that represents more than 300 unions affiliated with the AFL-CIO. And he didn't even have to retire as the federation president. He's still in that job, which paid him $215,484 in 2007, the most recent figures available. Thanks to that law, Gannon now collects a city pension that's nearly three times what he made at City Hall. He began collecting that pension five years ago, when he was 50. By the time he turns 70, that city pension will have paid him a total of more than $3 million. Gannon is perhaps the city's most prominent labor leader. When Mayor Daley was seeking cost-cutting concessions from city workers this summer, he turned to Gannon -- and largely got them. Dates back to 1957 Gannon defends his city pension deal. "I'm probably not the only labor guy taking advantage of that state law,'' Gannon said. He's right. A Chicago Sun-Times examination of the state's 17 largest government retirement plans found more than five dozen retired government workers whose pensions are based not on their public salaries but, instead, on what they were paid by labor unions, lobbying groups and other non-governmental organizations. The practice goes back to at least 1957, when Illinois legislators passed a law allowing employees of the Illinois Municipal League -- a non-governmental agency that lobbies Illinois lawmakers on behalf of suburbs and cities -- to be part of the state's generous pension plan. Other laws expanded the practice.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 A year after retiring, Jones to get 51% boost $168,661 A YEAR | Longevity bonus plus annual cost-of-living hike Comments September 11, 2009 Emil Jones Jr. is about to hit the pension jackpot. The retired Illinois Senate president's state pension this year: $81,016. In January, a year after his retirement, it skyrockets 51 percent, to $122,334, far more than his final Senate salary of $95,313. That's when the Chicago Democrat cashes in on two pension sweeteners that legislators set up for themselves: a longevity bonus for serving more than 20 years in the Illinois Legislature and a cost-of-living increase. Jones also has three other government pensions: $41,824 a year for his 21 years as a City of Chicago sewer inspector. $3,188 for his two years as a Cook County employee. And $1,315 for his 1½ years as a laborer with the Chicago Park District. Jones, 73, began collecting those pensions 16 years ago, while serving as a state senator. He didn't respond to interview requests.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Dawn Clark Netsch Former state comptroller Age: 82 Final salary: $84,529 in 1995 Original pension: $71,850 Current pension: $114,733 Her pension contributions: $87,562 Total pension received: $1.4 million since January 1995. The story: Chicago Democrat served more than 22 years as a state senator and comptroller. After losing the governor's race, she retired in January 1995. For serving more than 20 years, she got a 9 percent pension boost. Also gets cost-of-living increases. Today: Northwestern University law professor Quote: "I know I get a big pension. What am I supposed to do? Refuse it?'' Netsch said. "There's no question there has to be changes made in the public employee retirement system.'' Arthur Berman Former state senator Age: 74 Final salary: $59,657 as a senator in 2000 Original pension: $119,439 Current combined pensions: $196,700 His pension contributions: $109,293 Total pension received: $1.3 million from the General Assembly pension plan since September 2001. The story: Chicago Democrat's state pension isn't based on 85 percent of his final salary as a senator, but on the $140,516-a-year job he got from the Chicago Board of Education after he left the Senate. He's one of many legislators who used a law they passed to get inflated pensions based on taking a short-term, higher-paying government job. Also got a 36 percent longevity boost for serving 32 years as a legislator, plus yearly 3 percent cost-of-living raises. Today: A lawyer Quote: "What I receive in pension is what the law provides for me,'' Berman told the Sun-Times six years ago, when his pension was $164,612. Timothy Degnan Former state senator Age: 69 Final salary: $35,661 as a senator in 1989 Original pension: $88,006 Current combined pensions: $119,421 His pension contributions: $85,291 Total pension received: $1.2 million since August 1995, when he was 55 The story: Nearly tripled his state pension by having it based on the $103,536 salary he got as Mayor Daley's first patronage director, rather than his final Senate salary of $35,661. It's one of many ways legislators have inflated their pensions. Degnan spent 11 years in the Senate, leaving in April 1989 to work for Daley, whose patronage operation he ran until he retired in 1995. Gets automatic 3 percent yearly cost-of-living raises. Today: Runs Glenrock Co., a supplier of construction materials. James R. Thompson Former governor Age: 73 Final salary: $93,266 in 1991 Original pension: $79,276 Current pension: $119,912 His pension contributions: $84,996 Total pension received: $1.7 million since 1991, when he was 55. The story: His pension has risen 50 percent since he retired, thanks to cost-of-living increases. Today: Four-term Republican governor is a rainmaker at Winston & Strawn, the law firm that defended former Gov. George Ryan for free. Ed Kelly Former Chicago Park District superintendent Age: 85 Final average salary: $76,835 Original pension: $57,627 Current pension: $95,714 His pension contributions: $79,983 Total pension received: $1.7 million since 1986 The story: Pension has risen 66 percent since he retired, thanks to cost-of-living increases. Kelly spent 37 years with the Park District, including 15 years as superintendent. Also ran the powerful 47th Ward Democratic Organization under the late Mayor Richard J. Daley. Quote: "I was in my office at 7 in the morning, and I was the last to leave,'' Kelly said. "I don't want to be put in the category of some politician that has two pensions, three pensions.'' Dr. Riad Barmada Former head of orthopedic surgery, University of Illinois Medical Center at Chicago Age: 80 Final average salary: $334,355 a year Original pension: $262,968 a year Current pension: $364,165 a year His pension contributions: $787,226, including interest Total pension received: $3.58 million from the State Universities Retirement System since January 1998 The story: Barmada was 69 when he retired from UIC after 36 years. Government pensions increase 3 percent a year, which now gives him a pension that exceeds his final salary. Quote: "I don't think it's really overboard,'' Barmada said. "They don't talk about the years of service and the much lower income you get.'' Henry "Hank'' Bangser Former New Trier High School superintendent Age: 60 Final average salary: $307,375 in 2006 Current pension: $230,531 His pension contributions: $455,244 Total pension received: $1.1 million since July 2006. The story: Got 20 percent raises each of his last four years at New Trier, a common practice school districts use to inflate pensions for educators -- paid by taxpayers statewide. Legislators have tried to curb this practice, now requiring school districts to make pension contributions for any raise beyond 6 percent. Now that he's 60, Bangser's pension will increase 3 percent a year. If he lives to 80, he could collect nearly $8 million. Today: CEO of Hazard, Young, Attea & Associates, a recruitment firm that New Trier used to pick Bangser's replacement. The company was started by William Attea, a retired school superintendent from Glenview who has collected more than $2 million in pension money since 1994. U.S. Sen. Roland Burris Former attorney general, comptroller Age: 72 Final salary: $93,333 in 1995 Original pension: $82,904 Current pension: $121,747 His pension contributions: $134,680 Total pension received: $1.4 million starting in 1995, when he was 57 The story: Chicago Democrat served 12 years as state comptroller and eight as attorney general. After losing race for governor, retired in January 1995. Pension has risen nearly 50 percent thanks to cost-of-living raises. Today: Has been under fire since December, when then-Gov. Rod Blagojevich named him to fill President Obama's former U.S. Senate seat. Has said he won't seek election to the Senate seat next year. With his state pension and $174,000 federal paycheck, annual pay is $295,747. John Friedland Former state representative Age: 71 Final salary: $35,661 as a legislator in 1992 Original pension: $89,656 Current combined pensions: $132,705 His pension contributions: $66,716 Total pension received: $1.7 million since January 1993, when he was 55 -- the youngest that a legislator can collect a state pension. Collected more pension money than any other retired legislator. The story: A Republican from South Elgin, Friedland was a pension expert and served on the Senate Pension Committee. Was among the first legislators to get an inflated state pension based on a job with another government agency -- a practice since outlawed for those elected after 1995. Friedland got a $96,000-a-year job at the Fox River Water Reclamation District, working for just two months so he could nearly triple his legislative pension. Got an extra 12 percent for serving longer than 20 years, plus 3 percent cost-of-living increases.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 These are not rare exceptions skinner- this is reality across the country. Even though there are issues with pensions systems based on actuary models that are 30+ years old- there are even more issues with those who manipulate the system at taxpayers expense... if being progressive means this is all OK- and you somehow want to claim these are all self funded - then I have no answers for you. Who's going to get screwed when this all comes down ? The average Joe who has a pension and retires and all he wants to do is enjoy it-- because of people manipulating the systems like never before. Governments are so top heavy with so many unnecessary layers that we are paying for things 3 times over. This didn't just happen- it's been going on for a generation or so- but just hidden because the govenment entities just kept short funding exisitng pensions - then borrowingmore to cover, and as long as the economy was growing leaps and bounds no one paid any attention. September 13, 2009 BY TIM NOVAK AND ART GOLAB Staff Reporters John Plezbert found a painless way to double his income. He retired. Plezbert was just 49, a few weeks shy of his 50th birthday, when he retired in June 2006 as Mayor Daley's first deputy commissioner of general services -- a job that paid $124,944. Three days later, he started a new job -- as the $155,324-a-year first deputy director of the mayor's Public Building Commission. Between his city pension and his city job, Plezbert now makes $246,721 a year. Plezbert, 53, is a Bridgeport resident with ties to the Daley family's longtime political base, the 11th Ward Regular Democratic Organization. Under state law, people with 30 years of service with the city of Chicago or Cook County government can start collecting a lifetime of pension checks when they turn 50. Other government workers have to wait till their 55th birthday. Increasingly, clout-heavy double-dippers retire from one job as soon as they can, then, like Plezbert, find another government job covered by a separate pension plan.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 All legal- all contributing towards financial ruin that affects all of us -- If these are GOP talking points I'll eat my hat. I have no love for the GOP at this point, nor the democrats and sure as heck not for goofs like the tea party. These are real situations and real facts that have to be addressed. My issue is with those who want to pretend they don't exist and somehow this is just mismanagement ( and there is indeed some of that )- or some conspiracy theory to bring down the common man. My doctorate thesis done almost 20 years ago was on the effects shared services and an aging workforce ( including the effects of lfe expectancy) would have on the workforce in 2020. Well we are almost there. A lot of what I foresaw - an aging services workforce without benefits unless they were government provided - large offshore shared services set up in emerging countries that wiped out much of the white collar middle class here- the inability to retire for most people, yet age barriers to the better jobs. Potential collpse of our higher education systems ..due to lack of opportunity and huge debt of graduating students. It was 75 pages in length and I had to present at an OD conference. funny my Dean of grad school told me he considered himself to be liberal with progressive traits - yet agreed that the issues I called out had to be addressed to avoid much of what I predicted. He is 80 years old and we are very close friends...we talk often on how we got here as a country ( he is originally from Sweden ) but he never called me immature - or a GOP talking head mouthpiece... hmmmmm
