Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< If the switch was NOT thrown by Maintenance and then communicated as a completed task then *they* are the ones responsible. >>> Well, that certainly would be the causal factor, but not the only one. I still maintain that for something that obviously has such a potential for bad things to happen should a mistake be made, there should not be reliance on a single individual to do their job properly (that being the person at the barn that controls the switch and reports its status on the radio).
Originally Posted By -em >>If that's the case, then them being at Denny's may have had no bearing on the accident, if all Central was doing was confirming that the beam switch should be taking place and that they heard maintenance say on the radio that the switch had been done.<< Technically no but it is inexcusable and VERY poor judgement >>So, I'll go back to what I said earlier: it seems to me that there should be some specific, defined procedure that the driver takes after traversing the switch to verify that they are on the right beam, beyond general situational awareness. Does such a procedure exist?<< The Epcot spur is really the anomaly of the switches in many ways due to length, curvature and location. The rules of the other switches mostly don't apply. Off all the switches the only one this could've happened on IS Epcot as had the switch not happened on the other lines you'd have had a smooth ride vs rather bumpy, a straight path instead of a curved one, and a good 500 feet of clearance before you'd hit anything (the main switches are almost in the road between MK and Contemp) Epcot you have basically smooth vs smooth, curve vs curve... The only difference is a few feet north and about a dozen feet in length. -em
Originally Posted By SuperDry ^^^ All the more reason to have a specific procedure in place to ensure that you're on the right beam after traversing the switch.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones I hope this isn't part of a trend. Look at what happened at Disneyland during the Pressler/Harris era. First, general upkeep goes. Minor stuff like paint and lights. Then things on rides start breaking and stay broken (Pirates at one point was in an awful state). Then there are cutbacks in personnel. The working lead position was eliminated. Training was sub par. Then the Columbia accident happened, killing one. Then managers started signing off on maintenance work when such work wasn't actually done. That's when a Big Thunder train derailed, killing one. Then management resigned to "spend more time with the family" and a new management team stepped in and improved general upkeep substantially. I may rant about this and that at Disneyland, but general upkeep has improved, I can say that much. People have been talking about the Magic Kingdom's downward spiral for a while now. I wonder if the broken windows principle is at play here. If the minor stuff isn't getting taken care of, how do we know that the major stuff is being taken care off? Did poor training and poor management kill this monorail driver, similar to Columbia? Oh, the drama is palpable.
Originally Posted By leobloom >>Did poor training and poor management kill this monorail driver, similar to Columbia?>> I've wondered what role poor training plays, but also how much a high employee turnover has contributed. I'm guessing the average CM works at WDW from six months to a year. I know when I was working at Epcot Attractions, we had a high turnover, especially among the under-40 demographic. I shudder to think what the parks would be like without the College Program. Whatever their faults, at least the college kids are usually a little more professional and goal-oriented than your middle-age hourly CM from Polk or Lake or Orange County who is stuck at a dead-end job. (A depressing picture, really.) But back to the issue of turnover: having so many CMs who are relatively new to the job raises issues of safety simply because of inexperience.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Turnover and training definitely go hand in hand, but keep in mind that the monorails should be able to be operated safely by a pilot that has received whatever the minimum amount of required training is. Operating a monorail isn't like flying an airplane.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Then managers started signing off on maintenance work when such work wasn't actually done. That's when a Big Thunder train derailed, killing one. >> Based on the court records, the Big Thunder accident occurred when an hourly operations cast member placed a train into service that was tagged out for maintenance. It wasn't a result of maintenance neglect or someone signing off on incomplete maintenance. It was a procedural error based on a maintenance tag being ignored. During the legal proceedings, the plaintiff's lawywers produced records from the mid-80s that showed lapses in maintenance programs at Disneyland and on Big Thunder which were then suggested to play a role in an accident that occurred a decade later. You can do an inspection on every maintenance and safety program at every industrial site in the country and find dozens of violations on a daily basis. There is no perfect system out there that does not produce these results. It's also usually the case where maintenance and safety violations originate from the bottom of the organization, not the top. Now, I do find fault with an on-watch manager not being present at the work-site during this accident. It's not directly related to the mishap, but it contributes to an overall environment where employees feel that they can just go through the motions and the rest of the system will work just fine in spite of their absence. The NTSB report also found that the monorail coordinator (or whater the title is called) at the TTC was not present because of some reported illness, and the off-site manager was presumably performing those duties as well. That's really unacceptable. I wonder how many other cast members were out sick, clocked out early, or weren't at their posts that evening? How many were mentally absent because the culture being developed seemed to suggest that no one person is really all that important to make these monorails run? How many were filling in for others who didn't think they needed to show up for work that night? It sounds to me like it's time for some good old-fashioned micro-management here. You can't lead any organization simply by radio, phone, or e-mail. It takes physical presence and tough-as-nails standards to keep people in line. Otherwise, the tendency is to relax standards. In short, people in management and leadership positions need to be complete ##-holes when it comes to this stuff. If folks aren't grumbling about micro-management, then there probably isn't enough management going on. I fight this everyday in my line of work. I can't tell you how many times I've shown up at an important event where employees have been excused by their supervisor before the work is complete without any regard for a replacement. It's very frustrating because you then have to stop everything while you ensure that the task being performed is conducted up to the personnel standards designed. Then everyone gets all grumpy and upset because you decided to slow down the wheels of progress and everything would have been "just fine" if just let them alone to do things a person or two short. You repeat this process of oversight constantly, and the only way to ensure that dangerous tasks are being performed correctly is through direct physical observation of the task performance. Otherwise, you can be assured that someone is cutting corners. You can't take any chances by being off-site or out of the decision loop.
Originally Posted By CarolinaDisneyDad I have a couple of observations. 1) who would have thought a 15mph collision would cause this kind of damage. If 2 cars collide at this speed with only 1 moving both cars probably drive away. I think some sort of bumpers on the front and rear of the monorails might be warranted. 2) Since the nose and tail compartments are the collision risks, would it be possible to put in an emergency escape hatch that exits back to the adjoining compartment so that the nose and tail can be evacuated in the case of an emergency? 3)I know Disney will probably stop riders in the front compartment but I wonder what message this would send. You would be placing an employee in an area that is too dangerous for guests. I think procedural review and additional checks installed to prevent reoccurance should suffice. I still can't believe this happened but even with our most advanced technologies and procedures human error remains unpredictable.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< 2) Since the nose and tail compartments are the collision risks, would it be possible to put in an emergency escape hatch that exits back to the adjoining compartment so that the nose and tail can be evacuated in the case of an emergency? >>> Probably not - there is a large wheel and tire in that area.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Now, I do find fault with an on-watch manager not being present at the work-site during this accident. It's not directly related to the mishap, but it contributes to an overall environment where employees feel that they can just go through the motions and the rest of the system will work just fine in spite of their absence. >>> Very interesting observation.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<who would have thought a 15mph collision would cause this kind of damage. If 2 cars collide at this speed with only 1 moving both cars probably drive away.>> As I mentioned before, I think it's likely due to the mass of the trains. With 100,00lbs or so behind each cab, it's not the same thing as crashing two cars together.
Originally Posted By ImaginingDisney001 >>>>> As I mentioned before, I think it's likely due to the mass of the trains. With 100,00lbs or so behind each cab, it's not the same thing as crashing two cars together. <<<< ABSOLUTELY!!!! It takes a lot of force to stop that kind of momentum and it tore into the other MonoRails nose cone. Imagine if Disney Goes crazy and installs Crash Cages.. no room for riders after that. Bet that will enhance the looks of the MonoRail. From what I am hearing, these trains have no interlocks in the system to prevent the problem from happening. The track switching has to be visually confirmed.. obviously, this can't be done from Dennys. Could the Pilot tell he was not switching properly to the Experess main track? At night, that might be a factor. Walt has a full size train set and most of the procedures for track switching are manual and require visual confirmation. As for the Pilot, he is on the other side, or REAR of the motion of the MonoRail as it moves in reverse. Have you ever tried to back a boat trailor to a parking space? It can be a challenge and is disorientating. I don't enough about the track system but It would make sense if there were hard interlocks to prevent the train from going down the wrong tracks. Technology is great but it can be confused if there is a human error made. If there is a loop hole inthe plan, there is potential for disaster. IT took 38 years for this one to show up. As for the Pilot in the station attempting to move in reverse to avoid the accident, He tried to do his best, though better judgement would dictate bailing out. Perhaps he was still loaded with guests and was attempting to protect them from injury. There is too much to consider for us to comprehend, too much done wrong, and people not on site to direct the trains. The safety people will have their hands full and then, a manslaughter count may be involved. There might be jail time since a life was lost. THis is just a sad sad thing. Then, Disney will most likely NOT replace the damaged monorails because of the age and cost. The Monorails are too old to buy new ones. I predict they will take the good nose off of one and replace the smashed one on the other. It will go in service giving Disney a total of 11 MonoRails. The remaining MonoRail Hulk will be used for parts. This is the only plan that will make any sense both business and monetarily. Whichever one was having the most problems and repair instances will probably be the Parts doner. Only makes sense ID
Originally Posted By sjhym33 "Could the Pilot tell he was not switching properly to the Experess main track? At night, that might be a factor." My thoughts exactly. I have driven that track change many times in both the light and the dark and if you are paying attention you should notice that you are on the wrong track.
Originally Posted By sharpc <<Then, Disney will most likely NOT replace the damaged monorails because of the age and cost. The Monorails are too old to buy new ones. I predict they will take the good nose off of one and replace the smashed one on the other. It will go in service giving Disney a total of 11 MonoRails. The remaining MonoRail Hulk will be used for parts.>> But Disney just spent a rather large hunk of money redoing all monorail trains (updating drive systems and installing new flooring). I'm really not sure where they can go from there, as I also don't see Disney being too eager to replace an entire fleet of monorails given their recent bad luck.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 In the early 70's two monorails collided at the MK. The two cars that were badly damaged were buried and the remaining cars were melded into one train. I would expect that Disney might do that again at some point with these two trains. Though I wonder if we will ever see a Monorail Pink or Purple again.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I fight this everyday in my line of work. I can't tell you how many times I've shown up at an important event where employees have been excused by their supervisor before the work is complete without any regard for a replacement. It's very frustrating because you then have to stop everything while you ensure that the task being performed is conducted up to the personnel standards designed. Then everyone gets all grumpy and upset because you decided to slow down the wheels of progress and everything would have been "just fine" if just let them alone to do things a person or two short. You repeat this process of oversight constantly, and the only way to ensure that dangerous tasks are being performed correctly is through direct physical observation of the task performance. Otherwise, you can be assured that someone is cutting corners. You can't take any chances by being off-site or out of the decision loop.< work ethic is not what it was even 10 years ago - and surely 15 years ago... Now I am not excusing it as I have to manage thru it just like you do, and it ticks me off-- but in my line of work- once off shoring started , then freezing and elimination of 'promised' pensions, they benefit takeaways etc etc.. and general disregard for the meployee as anything but a number - then loyalty and dedication left from the employee side also. I am not trying to lay blame totally on either side or excuse slackard approaches to jobs -- it is just a fact that the employee - employer relationship is a 2 way street, and there is planty of blame to go around for the shoddiness of both wotk output and management these days. It's very discouraging
Originally Posted By sjhym33 Disney put 3 Cast Members on paid leave today as part of the investigation. A monorail driver, a manager and a maitenance person. Here is a link: <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-disney-monorail-crash-employees-070909,0,5549751.story" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com...51.story</a> From my own experience at Disney, they can call this part of the investigation, but Disney does not usually do that unless they are planning disciplinary action including termination.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Now I am not excusing it as I have to manage thru it just like you do, and it ticks me off-- but in my line of work- once off shoring started , then freezing and elimination of 'promised' pensions, they benefit takeaways etc etc.. and general disregard for the meployee as anything but a number - then loyalty and dedication left from the employee side also. >> I'm completely onboard with your logic. However, I work in an industry where everyone has a fantastic pension plan, solid health benefits, guaranteed COLAs every year, and an environment where it's nearly impossible to get fired. So, I think it's just human nature that people look for shortcuts to get things done and sidestep the rules. If anything has changed, I think we have gotten a little soft in the management tactics in the effort to treat people with enormous levels of respect and dignity. Unfortunately, in areas of safety, I think you sometimes have to manage by fear and negative consequences when people violate standards. It's really the only way to ensure compliance across the board.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 The problem in most companies is that manager don't manage. They react but are not proactive. One of the biggest complaint at Disney is that you never see managers in the area.
Originally Posted By MPierce I've got a question for you -em. Do you remember how long it takes to reboot the Monorail when switching from cab#1, to cab#6?
