Originally Posted By Digital Affect ^^ Hello, I'm currently a College Program Cast Member. I'll shed some light on our scheduling and our status in the company. Technically, a College Program Cast Member is considered a full time CM without the benefits added on, meaning that we are required to get around 30ish hours so we can pay our rent for the week AND have food. In the slow seasons hours fluxuate from around 30 to the high 30s. The busy season hours do go up. When labor is increased in an area the CPs are given the longer shifts that extend into overtime. I can and will attest to being scheduled 12 hour shifts on the clock (this doesn't include breaks, that's 12 hours of paid working hours). Hours can be anywhere from 6 to 12, mostly I've seen shifts range in the 10 hour to the 11ish, but a 12 hour + shift does appear, especially during the holidays such as this. A CP will be scheduled like this because a CP is paid minimum wage and when overtime kicks in, it doesn't hit the pocket book so much as if it was a full timer. While it has not happened to me personally I have seen some of my friends (CPs) scheduled to close and then reopen within 8 hours, making them earn double time.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I'm not sure what has prompted all the questioning about hour worked. As far as I am concerned neither monorail driver was did anything wrong. It seems to me that safety protocols were not followed and the driver of monorail pink was misinformed that the switch was engaged when in fact it was not. Make no mistake this accident was preventable had safety protocols been enforced. Other factors to consider ( and I'm sure will be brought up by Federal and State investigators, if allowed by Disney ) would include that it was dark at the time, and to my knowledge that area of track is not well lit up. Monorail Pink was being driven backwards while the drive was controlling the monorail from the opposite end of the monorail train set. I have a friend that is an Engineer for NYNJ rapidrail and whenever he is driving a train he is always in the cab in front of the train. In other words if the train was being driven in the opposite direction then he would get out of the train and walk to the cab at the front of the train in the direction that the train will be traveling so that the Engineers can "see" the track ahead of them. Trains are never run in reverse. Also much like Police Officers and Firemen, train Engineers have radios in their cabs and maintain constant contact with other Engineers and railroad personnel. I'm not sure what was going on with the Monorails as I know they have radios in their cabs also. Lastly, obviously there is a design flaw in the monorail Mark VII design. I think the world has discovered that Carbon fiber hulls doing fare well in collisions. One has to question if the cabs at either end of the monorail Mark 7 has a steel protective cage. I would suspect it does not since the cabs on both monorails were totally crushed. All this at 15 miles per hour. That would make a Smart Car far safer in crash than a Mark VII. Oh course had safety protocols been followed it wouldn't matter if those cabs were built out of gasoline soaked raged since there never should have been a collision in the first place. So lets go over this, 1: Safety Protocols not followed, 2: At night and poor lighting limiting visibility, 3: Monorail Pink running in reverse while driver was controlling monorail from opposite end of train set, 4: Design flaw on Mark VII monorails with no safety cage for driver.
Originally Posted By sharpc I'm not sure of the feasibility of the driver of pink getting out of the monorail and walking to the other side.. Unless two drivers are used on each monorail, the driver has to go in reverse at some point. The crucial point within all this has to do with the switch. Can the spur line not being changed be attributed to human error, or mechanical error. Apart from that, everything does follow the protocol that has worked so well for 38 years..
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << As far as I am concerned neither monorail driver was did anything wrong. >> I would have to disagree. There is a burden on the driver of either monorail to be observant for all obstacles in the path of the monorail, and the environment surrounding the monorail. At anytime during this incident the driver of the Pink monorail could have 1) noticed that they did not make the switch to the spur track as the switch appeared on the left side of the cabin, 3) noticed the spur traick on the left side of the cabin as the train maneuvered in its turn, 3) noticed they were approaching the wrong side of the monorail station, or 4) noticed the very prominent strobe light on the cab of the Purple monorail in the rear view mirror as the two trains approached one another. Observations like these are the primary reason why you keep humans in the loop on a system like this. That is the main responsibility of having a person in the loop -- to observe abnormalities and make decisions in the event of system failures or other errors. Whenever you investigate mishaps like this, you have to be willing to find fault and wrongdoing at all parts of the system. It's unpleasant to think that a driver could be at fault for something like this, but you can't get to the root cause of the problem if you are unwilling to acknowledge these faults. The underlying cause of the whole accident likely falls somewhere in the process by which the switching system did not operate or was not operated in the way it was intended. However, the backup to this failure was having an aware driver in the cab. In this instance, the backup appears to have failed as well. There's certainly a lot more to this story that is unknown to message board folks, but it's very unhealthy in accident investigations to be reluctant to assign wrongoing on individuals at every level of the system and operation. I'm sure there's a lot of folks at fault here, and you have to acknowledge it in order to make the proper corrections so it never happens again.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper My guess is human error on the switch. I don't think there is enough "technology" in place to make it a technological error. I truly hope I'm wrong about that.
Originally Posted By barboy ///I truly hope I'm wrong about that./// Why? Why would you care either way(cast vs technology error).
Originally Posted By ImaginingDisney001 This is such a terrible occurance. There is so much to look at, the investigators have a lot to study. The monorail running reverse was blind, they can't see to the rear. EVEN CARS HAVE BACKUP SENORS NOWDAYS. The monorail in the station is interesting. If the doors are opened, are'nt they interlocked so the monorail cannot move?? And if the switch was opened, agian, wouldnt the track power be dead? That poor driver had only one choice, he needed to bail out. as for the driver backing being asleep, if you have to press the dead man for Mapo bypass, that theory goes out the window. Disney has known of all these "concerns" and at least could have installed cameras in the rear cars, they have them all over the PARK! Can't they put on in a 10 million dollar Monorail???? I am not a full beleiver in technology anymore, I lost that thought years ago. I enjoy technology for play and help around the house but when it comes to life critical technology, I want redundancies. Cameras, back up sensors, perimiter alarms, etc, etc,. If they can build Cruise ships, they can spend some coin on safety. All this points to the CM that passed was an inocent bystander, he just happened to be in the way. My thoughts to that cm and family Disney needs to stop cutting and start paying attention to what they need to do to run WALTS park. ID
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I would have to disagree. There is a burden on the driver of either monorail to be observant for all obstacles in the path of the monorail, and the environment surrounding the monorail.>> I agree that the drivers of the monorails are asked to be observant of all obstacles in the path of the monorail. However, if your askng someone to run a monorail in reverse when being piloted from the opposite end it would seem to me then that the monorail is effectively being driven blind. Indeed this is a blantant inherent problem with Disney monorail system if thats the case. In all other commuter rail systems I can think of, the "train" is always piloted with the driver having an unobscured view from the cab in the direction the "train" is going. You can have all the flashing strobe lights in the world going off, but if you can't "see" whats in your path and your fellow rail personnel are telling you your on the right track and the coast is clear then your running blind. Which makes as much sense as driving your car backwards down the highway. This could easily have been avoided if 1) the switchman actually saw that monorail Pink was in fact on the correct beam, 2) there were drivers at either end of monorail while they are switching beams and going in reverse, 3) Someone was watching in the "watch tower" to make sure that nothing odd was doing on, 4) devise a means where the monorails do not have to run in reverse while switching onto various beams in order to get to the monorail barn each night, in other words add another beam off the Epcot loop to the barn so all this switching and reversing doesn't have to take place its not as if there isn't enough room on WDW property to do it.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 As a former driver, trainer then lead in Monorails I have been thinking alot about the recent accident. I agree with Sport Goofy that human error played a big part in this tragedy. The driver of Pink should have realised, even in the dark, that they were backing onto the wrong beam. The Coordinator at Monorail Central (or Base as we used to call it) should have been watching the train as it backed into the station. And I have been wondering how the driver of Purple did not see Monorail Pink backing up in enough time to either exit the monorail or throw the train in reverse. Maybe as the investigation these questions will be answered. I seem to remember (and I could be wrong) that to move a monorail from the EPCOT beam to the MK beam required maitenance to come to TTC to make the spur switch move. I remember having to call maitenance to give them sufficient time to send a person to TTC to do the switch. Unless that has changed I wonder where maitenance was during the train transfer. I also remember that we used to require a driver to back out of the TTC Epcot station so that they would be facing the switch beam (I used to think watching the beams moving was cool) and then drive forward into TTC then change ends again to drive out of the TTC station towards the MK. Maybe -em could shed some light on current SOP. I would be one of the first to jump on the band wagon about Disney and safety. However, after talking to friends and people in the know, it seems that this may have been a series of human errors that created this terrible tragedy. You will see changes in how Disney operates the monrail, just as we did when the monorail caught fire. It is a shame that terrible events are the things that make companies reexamine standard operating procedures.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<One has to question if the cabs at either end of the monorail Mark 7 has a steel protective cage. I would suspect it does not since the cabs on both monorails were totally crushed. All this at 15 miles per hour. That would make a Smart Car far safer in crash than a Mark VII.>> Two things. One, 15 MPH might seem like a low speed, but it's not. Try running that fast into a brick wall...there's enough G-force involved that if you hit your head at that speed, you could be killed. Two, there's a lot of mass behind the cab of a monorail train. I image the only way to make the cab safer in a collision would be to extend the nose much farther to create a crush zone.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Well, as a cast member involved in the situation I think I would have an easier time of it if I knew it wasn't my screw up that caused a fellow cast member to die but a technological issue. (In answer to Barboy's question.) Unfortunately I have a little experience with ride accidents, one of which caused some serious injury, and the staff members that erred had a lot of guilt that might have been minimized if there was a technological error to blame instead.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 Disney has announced that it will no longer allow guests to ride in the front of the monorail.
Originally Posted By sharpc <<Disney has announced that it will no longer allow guests to ride in the front of the monorail.>> Press Conference? Recent news? Sorry for not being able to keep up..
Originally Posted By TMICHAEL >>>The driver of Pink should have realised, even in the dark, that they were backing onto the wrong beam. The Coordinator at Monorail Central (or Base as we used to call it) should have been watching the train as it backed into the station. And I have been wondering how the driver of Purple did not see Monorail Pink backing up in enough time to either exit the monorail or throw the train in reverse<<< All excellent points that I too have been wondering. Especially the later of the Purple pilot not bailing out of the train when Pink was coming in on the wrong track. This may be one question we may never know the answer to. It was stated earlier in this thread that Monorail Central/Base was not being monitored. Can this be true during a track switch? If so, this is quite possibly THE weak link that caused the accident to proceed into a fatal situation. 100% avoidable. This is turning out to be one horrible accident where a multitude of factors/errors had to happen at the same time for it to occur.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I also remember that we used to require a driver to back out of the TTC Epcot station so that they would be facing the switch beam (I used to think watching the beams moving was cool) and then drive forward into TTC then change ends again to drive out of the TTC station towards the MK. Maybe -em could shed some light on current SOP.<< ... Yes that is how it use to take place. Which adds to my anger level. I too would really like to know what the current, everyday, protocol is. Was this a one-time thing because people wanted to get home or have they been reversing blindly into MK's Exterior beam regularly? >>I would be one of the first to jump on the band wagon about Disney and safety. However, after talking to friends and people in the know, it seems that this may have been a series of human errors that created this terrible tragedy. You will see changes in how Disney operates the monrail, just as we did when the monorail caught fire.<< And these series of human error fall squarely on Disney's shoulders. In my eyes... Unlike the dark days of Disneyland, WDW really hasn't endured any fatality that could be blamed on "Disney the entity"; like the Columbia or BTMR at Disneyland. It was either one CMs fault where that CM was the only victim or the fault of guests not adhering to common rules. This is the first incident in my recollection where an innocent person dies because the 'system' was not executed properly. That it happened and happened on the monorail is devastating. If there would have been a family in the nose-cone it would have been a COMPLETE disaster.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Disney has announced that it will no longer allow guests to ride in the front of the monorail.<< And that makes complete sense after what happened. Which I just posted above. That thought had to run into everyone's minds. If you have seen the video, could you imagine if that family with young girls had asked to be in front and it was ok'd? Could the policy be an over-reaction. Perhaps. However, with the current state of all of this under consideration, and with the vulnerability of the nose-cone on full display, I think it is a smart policy for the immediate future.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>It was stated earlier in this thread that Monorail Central/Base was not being monitored. Can this be true during a track switch? If so, this is quite possibly THE weak link that caused the accident to proceed into a fatal situation. 100% avoidable. This is turning out to be one horrible accident where a multitude of factors/errors had to happen at the same time for it to occur.<< Again, not knowing the real facts causes this come across as over-the-top hysteria, but my emotions are out of whack due to these questions which we must wait for answers on: 1) Was there confirmation given by shop that the switch was moved successfully? 2) What was control doing? Why does the position of control no longer deem it important to confirm the switch status at their console? 3) What was Pink doing when he/she should have been verifying second/by/second their own position on the beam? 4) How understaffed was T&TC when the incident occured and why didn't anyone see this coming and kill the power? What was the quality and quantity of the staffing at the T&TC to respond to this emergency? Like everyone I await these answers before getting worked-up too much more. I do believe all points (including #4, which shouldn't be taken lightly) point to Disney's overall responsibility for this young man's death. Their current policies, training procedures, and operational priorities look to be huge issues here. I am also curious with the thought if whether Burbank maybe now has a better understanding of the cause and effect nature of how bad decisions in a theme park can lead to these awful tragedies. I hope Mr. Iger doesn't write this off as a freak accident that could have happened in 1984, 1996 or 2009.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm not sure what has prompted all the questioning about hour worked. As far as I am concerned neither monorail driver was did anything wrong.*** I wasn't referring only to the drivers, necessarily. If you've got a whole crew of overworked, tired people, mistakes are more likely to happen. Seems as though in this case, at least one if not more persons overlooked SOMETHING.
