Originally Posted By bean "The only reason you would put a monorail system in Anaheim is because of the fun factor. However, aside from the already mentioned grade separation problem and switching problem, you have an issue with emergency evacuation. you need to be able to get out of the thing in case of a fire. That would require you to have a platform on either side of the track. Since you are building a platform anyway, you might as well just go for the cheaper and more flexible birail system" i do not believe that is a requirement. I have not seen any of the monorail system recently built that require platforms for evacuations. The Las Vegas monorail has been approved for expansion and will add a few miles to it. The next expansion will connect it from its last stop to the airport. The next phase will go from the airport across vegas blvd and run on the opposite side of the strip and then take a detoir to the red district and back to the end of the strip. The plans after that are to finish the track north to old vegas. Non of the track alreay built and in the plans have platforms for evacuations besides the stops along the route. I believe safety systems on the monorail system force the cars to arrive to the closest destination for evacuation procedures. If a monorail was to be built in Anaheim it would be pproximately 3 miles to conect the platinum triangle to the resort. Although i do like light rail systems, it would not be practical to have the rail run along a major road connecting those to locations. The time to get from the resort to the triangle would be excessive. The idea is to get guests, workers and conventioneers from one end to the other with the shortest amount of time. like i mentioned earlier, light rail has bigger safety issues than an elevated system.
Originally Posted By Mr X **I know you like monorail, but they just aren't used for various reasons, some of which I've mentioned.** There are quite a few monorail systems throughout Japan. I wouldn't say they are entirely impractical.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I have not seen any of the monorail system recently built that require platforms for evacuations." It would be state law, I would think. There has not really been a problem with evacuation, but if something did happen, like a fire, and there was no way to get out of the train, it would be a very bad scene. And some really bad major lawsuits would develop after something like that. The only municipalities that have monorail are Las Vegas and Seattle. I think Seattle already decided against extending theirs for many reasons. Nevada isn't exactly known for reasonable state laws, until something horrible happens (remember the MGM fire?)... "I believe safety systems on the monorail system force the cars to arrive to the closest destination for evacuation procedures." Unless the motor catches fire and it can't move. Then you have people being forced to jump out of the things. I don't mean to be a pessimist, but you do need to look at this sort of thing. It's what safety procedures area all about. Light rail can be elevated. It does not need to be at grade level with the street, but it CAN be if that is desired.
Originally Posted By Mr X **There has not really been a problem with evacuation, but if something did happen, like a fire, and there was no way to get out of the train, it would be a very bad scene.** That actually happened at DisneyWorld on the Epcot monorail. I believe people were evacuated via fire ladders. Not a great thing though, that's for sure! That Chiba monorail in Japan I sometimes ride can be pretty scary (it goes up HIGH, almost feels like an airplane!)..I would think if there was a fire you'd be pretty much cooked...no escape.
Originally Posted By jonvn Fire ladders? Not good. A fire is a pretty forseeable event. If there is NO way to get out and the train burns, you're going to have people jumping out windows. And aren't the new monorails being built with sealed windows? This actually reminds me that when I was on Spaceship Earth, I thought...we're like 10 stories up in this THING. What if there was a fire? It's not like it's some normal building where you can walk out a door, and in regular buildings, fires are deadly enough. But I wonder how you'd get out of SSE in an emergency. Not that I'm paranoid or anything...
Originally Posted By Mr X **But I wonder how you'd get out of SSE in an emergency.** I guess you could always climb out the "mickey hatch" at the top. Would only work for one or two people though, and THEN where would ya go!?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << A fire is a pretty forseeable event. >> It's also a pretty preventable event. Fire suppression systems are pretty reliable to take care of this sort of thing. Monorails are also not very susceptible to this sort of thing. An electrical fire is the most likely catastrophic failure that would result in a fire. I know it's happened before. However, using this as some sort of "disadvantage" for monorail is a little bit extreme. How do you evacuate an airplane in flight if there is a fire? You can't. Does that mean air travel isn't a practical mode of transportation?
Originally Posted By jonvn "It's also a pretty preventable event." If it were truly preventable, we'd never have fires, but we know we have them. So you have to take precautions in the forseeable situation that such an event may occur. "How do you evacuate an airplane in flight if there is a fire? " You land the plane, and jump out the emergency chutes if you can. That is why they are there.
Originally Posted By Mr X Imagine if the monorail caught fire at WDW when it's way up high just before entering the Contemporary. Scary!
Originally Posted By Darkbeer The Las Vegas Monorail has an emergency walkway throughout its route. <a href="http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LasVeg5.html" target="_blank">http://www.monorails.org/tMspa ges/LasVeg5.html</a> >>Compliance with national and local fire/life/safety criteria, including an emergency evacuation walkway throughout<< <a href="http://www.monorails.org/webpix" target="_blank">http://www.monorails.org/webpi x</a>%202/LVgraphics.pdf Figures 4 and 5 <a href="http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/lv-mon-dual-guideway-catwalk_pmt.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_monorail007.htm&h=400&w=300&sz=23&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=YlrxmvyjiZrn-M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images" target="_blank">http://images.google.com/imgre s?imgurl=http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/lv-mon-dual-guideway-catwalk_pmt.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_monorail007.htm&h=400&w=300&sz=23&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=YlrxmvyjiZrn-M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images</a>%3Fq%3Dlas%2Bvegas%2Bmonorail%2Bevacuation%2Bwalkway%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4GZAZ_enUS233US233%26sa%3DN Photo of the emergency walkway about halfway down the article. <a href="http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2055934690052474292WxkpqC" target="_blank">http://rides.webshots.com/phot o/2055934690052474292WxkpqC</a> Good shot of the evacuation walkway
Originally Posted By Darkbeer And here is a good article comparing the cost of Monorails vs LRT. <a href="http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_monorail001.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lightrailnow.org/my ths/m_monorail001.htm</a> Let's compare the LV Monorail as compared to the Los Angeles MTA lines. The LV Monorail cost over $167 million per mile, while the LRT MTA lines were about $50 million a mile, or about a 1/3'rd of the cost. LRT has a higher capacity and a faster acclerations which helps increase capacity. It is also a lot easier to add additional cars to an LRT at busy times, while a Monorail has a fixed length at all times.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The Las Vegas Monorail has an emergency walkway throughout its route." Ah ha....OK. I mean, how can you not? WDW does not have that. Because, I assume, they write their own laws.
Originally Posted By Mr X Tokyo Disney doesn't either, however they had to follow Japanese train laws (very strict) which require access from one end of the train to the other (no closed cars) and the ability for a second train to pull up and connect with the first in the event of an emergency (being driverless, I'm not quite sure how that would work but I'm sure the safety measures are adequate being an earthquake zone and all).
Originally Posted By jonvn it also has to figure that monorail is more expensive, because in addition to the tracks, you have to build pylons to support them.
Originally Posted By Mr X Honestly I'm surprised they built a monorail at all. The resort is not that large, and yes the system seems VERY expensive to build (not so "mickey mouse" as far as real looking stations and big trains). But then again, they charge 2 bucks a ride so I suppose they make it up. Thing is, both parks are easy walking distance from the train station so I don't really think too many people ride the monorail anyway (just hotel guests mostly).
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << it also has to figure that monorail is more expensive, because in addition to the tracks, you have to build pylons to support them. >> The cost of the underground infrastructure to build light rail systems, in addition to the hidden costs associated with closing down entire city streets while light rail systems are installed, makes this not a very valid point. In fact monorail systems can often be built without closing down major thoroughfares, and the construction timeline for monorail systems is usually twice as fast as that for conventional rail systems. This is one of the reasons why businesses along light rail corridors fail during the lengthy construction phase of those projects. The construction footprint required to install monorail pylons and supporting infrastructure is much less intrusive.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Also, with LRT you have multiple options on to where to build the track, while with a Monorail, you are stuck with an completely Elevated system. For example, from the proposed Anaheim Transportation Center, you could stay on grade (ground level) while you have stops at the Honda Center, Angel Stadium and the Platinum Triangle. Now, you have a major issue with crossing I-5. A Monorail would have to be VERY high, because currently you have Katella Avenue at Grade, then the I-5 elevated over it, and then you have to provide a large clearance for the vehicles on I-5 before you have the Monorail tracks. While with LRT, you have a few options, you can either "share" or reserve a couple of lanes of the current roadway for the LRT, or you could actually go underground in selected parts (similar to the MTA LRT service). You could tunnel from just east of Katella, and keep the rest of the service as a Subway, and build stations at Anaheim Garden Walk and the Convention Center/Disneyland Resort. The Convention Center stop could have 2 exits, one for the south side of Katella and the Convention Center and selected hotels, and then a north exit that comes up on the South edge of the DLR (Timon Lot). This would keep traffic flowing easier in the DLR area. In fact, you could do the entire route underground, but I think for cost savings, only part of the trip needs to be underground. The other choice is to elevate part of the LRT line. Options here are to continue down Katella on grade until getting past the I-5, then start to elevate the track (similar to a bridge) with stops at AGW and the Convention Center. Once again, you could have two exits for the Convention Center stop, one to the north and the south, and that the escalators/elevators would be on either side, so the pedestrians don't have to cross Katella. And if you didn't want to go underground or stay on grade on Katella Avenue, you could plan for the LRT as part of the Gene Autry Way expansion. Right now, only have the bridge that goes over I-5 is built (just to service the Carpool Lanes). As part of the planned expansion of Gene Autry Way to the convention center, you could easily plan for the additional space you needed for the LRT tracks, and keep it on grade. This might be the best option as related to costs to build and install the tracks.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The idea is to get guests, workers and conventioneers from one end to the other with the shortest amount of time." That seems rather shortsighted. What about all the people in between?
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "The LV Monorail cost over $167 million per mile, while the LRT MTA lines were about $50 million a mile, or about a 1/3'rd of the cost." Thanks for that article Darkbeer.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Also, with LRT you have multiple options on to where to build the track, while with a Monorail, you are stuck with an completely Elevated system. >> Actually, light rail offers fewer options where to build because the right of ways need to be larger and its harder to accumulate the right of way rights for these systems.
