Originally Posted By avromark Query - how long would it take to do a Monorail expansion - first for the existing footers, then for the rest of the parks. Also just how many buses does Disney operate?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 If they were going the existing route first, I could see it taking 24-36 months ... you have to sign agreements to get beam built, new trains constructed, stations ... beyond that, I'd say a minimum of 3-4 years for anything more. I have no idea of an exact bus figure. I would guess it's a few hundred, maybe more.
Originally Posted By avromark They could do a train as well... It's more interesting then Light Rail Transit, or they could do street cars
Originally Posted By EdisYoda <<or they could do street cars>> Actually, that would be a great idea for a loop between the Studios and Epcot. Since the Studios are dated around the 1930's to 1940's when streetcars ran in Los Angeles and Hollywood, this would make perfect themeing sense.
Originally Posted By avromark Too bad TTC only has a few PCC's left intact, if they don't mind 30+ year old streetcars the TTC is retiring the current fleet in a few years. TTC's former PCC streetcars reside in many states now (I beleive including SF, CA) One thing I miss from Toronto is street cars, something about the clacking of steel wheels, water poured over rails to reduce friction in certain stretches, sand to assist stopping, the clacking of a bell and not a horn... More cities should go back to street cars, they are cheaper then monorails after all. Besides you can board TTC street cars old school style and not just at stations on right of ways (they still operate on the street old school PCC era style).
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> If it does happen I would hope Bombardier wouldn't be used; << Okay, I'll ask. Why not Bombardier? What's not to like about them? The only item that comes to mind is the fact that they wanted more money to do design work for new trains at Disneyland, and Disney didn't like that. You can't just make a smaller gauge train by multiplying everying in the larger train design by 85%. It doesn't work that way.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Does anyone have a map of where beam footers have already been installed for a monorail extension to Studios and elsewhere?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Okay, I'll ask. Why not Bombardier? What's not to like about them? << Bombardier is just cursed with their American projects. The current Disneyland project is not an issue because as you alluded to, it was Pressler's regime that was being unreasonable with Bombardier. They thought they could extort what could be metaphorically labeled the only game in town. But, Bombardier's work on the Mark VIs and the Las Vegas system was plagued with many problems. Especially the Las Vegas system. While technology is night and day, I really perfered the simplicity in the Mark IV. The last thing you would want to see is a brand new WDW system suffer the problems and downtime of what Las Vegas' growing pains were. Again though, back to the the limited options for the Disneyland project, I think Bombardier will probably be the partner with the M-VI if an expansion ever sees the light of day.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Thanks for the insights, Chi. I'm wondering now if there's any chance at all of a Japanese solution someday?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Does anyone have a map of where beam footers have already been installed for a monorail extension to Studios and elsewhere?>> I've seen one, but I can't recall if it was online or not.
Originally Posted By disneyfreakny There are 3 major issues with monorail expansion. The cost of expanding the monorails has been a major issue. However, the bigger transporation issues that Disney exec's in Florida have been facing is - the volume/traffic flow of crowds at park opening/closing, and being able to utilize the Monorail as an amenity at its hotels. Right now Disney is happy being able to charge more for Monorail resorts, however if more hotels were included on this list, it suddenly no longer is viewed an 'special' amenity. Take for example buses. If the buses were only offered at some resorts, it would be an amenity. When it is suddenly offered at a lot of resorts, it becomes an expectation and no longer a luxury. Why do you think the monoral resorts are so much more expensive (for the most part) than some other deluxe resorts? Crowd flow at park closing is another major factor. Right now they can arrange buses according to how long each individual line is. It also allows everyone to scatter (some to bus stop 1, bus stop 2, ferryboat, monorail). More monorail stops means more people need to get through the stations. The amount of monorail lines out of the MK would have to be expanded greatly to meet the demands. Would you want to see 5 or 6 different monorail beams in front of the MK? (Yes that is a relatively close estimate) Those buses (as much as we hate them) move A TREMENDOUS amount of guests every day. While monorails hold more people, they cannot tell more monorails to go to a stop to pick up because the lines are long (they are on intervals). Imagine every airline arriving at MCO at the same time. Now imagine the nightmare it would be to get on their monorail system. That is the situtation that would make people VERY unhappy at the end of a long day at the parks. Also, the way the 'expansion' (if you want to call it that) was configured, it would have required some guests to transfer monorails up to 4 times (depending on where they were going). I hate to say it, but it is nice to just get on a bus maybe stop once or twice and reach your destination. How many of us cringe at the words 'transfer here', especially on vacation?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>There are 3 major issues with monorail expansion. The cost of expanding the monorails has been a major issue. However, the bigger transporation issues that Disney exec's in Florida have been facing is - the volume/traffic flow of crowds at park opening/closing, and being able to utilize the Monorail as an amenity at its hotels. Right now Disney is happy being able to charge more for Monorail resorts, however if more hotels were included on this list, it suddenly no longer is viewed an 'special' amenity. Take for example buses. If the buses were only offered at some resorts, it would be an amenity. When it is suddenly offered at a lot of resorts, it becomes an expectation and no longer a luxury. Why do you think the monoral resorts are so much more expensive (for the most part) than some other deluxe resorts?<< So using that logic, only the top 3 most expensive resorts should have pools? Maybe only the top 3 resorts should have televisions in the room? Too bad that the cheapest room at the Contemporary is cheaper then resorts w/o a monorail. The cheapest room at the Polynesian is only $10 more than Beach Club, Boardwalk & Yacht Club. So much for it being a special, reserved, luxury and monorail resorts being so much more expensive. It also doesn't explain why the other Deluxe resorts sans AKL all have boat service. Since you registered today I really can't judge anything but your defense over how WDW views their transportation strategy. >>Crowd flow at park closing is another major factor. Right now they can arrange buses according to how long each individual line is. It also allows everyone to scatter (some to bus stop 1, bus stop 2, ferryboat, monorail). More monorail stops means more people need to get through the stations. The amount of monorail lines out of the MK would have to be expanded greatly to meet the demands. Would you want to see 5 or 6 different monorail beams in front of the MK? (Yes that is a relatively close estimate) Those buses (as much as we hate them) move A TREMENDOUS amount of guests every day. While monorails hold more people, they cannot tell more monorails to go to a stop to pick up because the lines are long (they are on intervals). Imagine every airline arriving at MCO at the same time. Now imagine the nightmare it would be to get on their monorail system. That is the situtation that would make people VERY unhappy at the end of a long day at the parks.<< A much better point. However, no one, at least that I know of has suggested removing bus service; or boat service for that matter. No one expects any more lines added to MK, MK resorts or TTC. They want to see the main arteries, like Epcot to AK, or MGM to Downtown Disney get some sort of rail service. For park hopping and whatever Deluxe hotels along the way. Many routes would need to maintain bus service. No one denies that and the people you and I know who are in charge know that would need to be the setup. >>Also, the way the 'expansion' (if you want to call it that) was configured, it would have required some guests to transfer monorails up to 4 times (depending on where they were going). I hate to say it, but it is nice to just get on a bus maybe stop once or twice and reach your destination. How many of us cringe at the words 'transfer here', especially on vacation?<< Unless that is the same expansion plan that you referenced earlier, which had 5 lines in front of the MK, I am not aware of a plan so complex existing on a serious planning level. This plan of 5 MK beams and 4 transfer-routes is something new to me. Not that that says much. Sounds like the expansion boogyman to me. The serious plans I have read about or been told about were much more straight-forward involving off-property integration and new routes to Downtown Disney and the parks. If someone really wanted to play hopscotch and make 4 connections they could but that would not be the intention or be necessary. It's akin to driving to WL to take a boat to Contemporary to take a monorail to MK. Not necessary, but possible. Most plans that were rumored were reportedly nixed because Disney was too short-sighted to come together on regional rail and at another time b/c of the effects after 9/11.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>How many of us cringe at the words 'transfer here', especially on vacation?<< Probably the same amount who cringe that Disney's so called ability to plan for peak crowds at park close basically sticks them waiting in a line waiting for two or three buses to fill up before they can board. Yep, no problem with bus operations. It's flawless. Maybe you missed the heated handicap thread. I'll tell you this, boats and rails deal with wheelchairs and strollers WAY better. Man, I keep coming up w/ more and more reasons for expansions. Pretty easy.
Originally Posted By Socrates Very interesting topic, which pops up periodically. I think it all boils down to one word: speculate. As much as most (if not all) of us would like to see an expansion of the WDW monorail system, it's just a business decision, and we don't seem to have any inside visibility. But with all the talent we have here (not to mention fanaticism), can't somebody find/figure some hard costs? How about an article in the magazine? Socrates "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Unless that is the same expansion plan that you referenced earlier, which had 5 lines in front of the MK, I am not aware of a plan so complex existing on a serious planning level. This plan of 5 MK beams and 4 transfer-routes is something new to me. Not that that says much. Sounds like the expansion boogyman to me. The serious plans I have read about or been told about were much more straight-forward involving off-property integration and new routes to Downtown Disney and the parks.>> That's it. Period. There were NEVER to my (extensive) knowledge (no ego here) any wild plans for 5-6 tracks at the MK or anything like that at all. The next phase of expansion, which was fully developed had a second station at Epcot, much like the setup at the TTC. One Epcot spur went to the TTC. The new one went to the Disney-MGM Studios and the Epcot Resorts, with a main station basically right near the Yacht Club Convention Center. That was the it. The DD plan was even earlier and before Buena Vista Drive ever connected with World Drive, so it wouldn't have been viable in the version considered. But the late 80s plan could still be done. Won't ... but could. As to transfers, such is life. I've never had problems transferring with monorails, but buses can be the stuff of nightmares. And trains load everyone, including those in wheelchairs/strollers much faster and easier than buses.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> Those buses (as much as we hate them) move A TREMENDOUS amount of guests every day. << I will admit buses will probably be with us forever. I just wish there weren't so many, and especially I wish they weren't the same exhausty, noisy diesel buses you see off property. I see the monorails more naturally appropriate for the across-property movement of people during the normal course of the vacation day. They are much less for the emptying of a park at close. That's when buses could/do come more naturally into play.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I I were to master plan the monorails, I would add one more spur. Keeping the existing config for the MK - Epcot Line. I would add an East to West config. That runs AKL to DAK to 1 Epcot Resort station to the Studios and then on to Downtown Disney. At all resorts, users insert their hotel passes or have to pay to enter the line for the monorail ($8 - $10 a day). Also, they could start charging for parking at DTD. This I think would be tenable. Then I would reduce the number of busses to pick up from the deluxes, with the busses being used for the water parks, value and moderate resorts. Convert the roads to have dedicated bus lanes for buses and cabs only (perhaps Cast members too??!!). And convert the buses to electric or natural gas. I would prefer an on demand people mover, but I know financially that is cloud cookoo land. But I think my config would be cost effective.
Originally Posted By ChiMike And let's not forget the regional rail angle. That's why I've always been sour about this entire Magical Express nonsense. I know a lot of people on here have glowed about what a great service it is, but knowing what could have been prevents me from being very positive. If Disney built the Rouge's Gallery Wax Museum instead of POTC I'm sure there would have been many fans who thought the wax museum was MaGiCaL! And it probably would have been to an extent. But just like Magical Express it could have been way, way, MORE mAgIcAl, with a few wishes and dreams come true thrown own for profit margin. Not to mention actually being more efficient. Still wouldn't have had to worry about bags. Still wouldn't have to worry about room keys or return check-ins. But you could get on property and then decide if you wanted to get to the resort first or head straight to the parks or a restaurant. And Disney would have benefited by having a vast array of partners to support the initative. So I understand why people love something that's free and better than a rental car. Why calling it ""Magical Express"" is better then calling it ""Mears, Inc." But it could have been much, much better.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss Just to pick a nit here: in railroad terminology a spur is a track with branches off the mainline and terminates. The track switching off to the monorail maintanance shed is an example of a spur. Any extentions of the monorail system to WDW would not be spurs, but new mainlines.
