Originally Posted By planodisney oc dean, that was one question I have wanted to ask for a long time. This area was actually the lengthiest discussion we had. This guy is a Disney person. He isnt just an employee but is also a genuine lifelong Disney fan. He knows what is being talked about online and what the blogs are saying, however, he said most of the actual decision makers do not and couldnt care less. He specifically talked about how unpopular the choice of Carsland for DCA expansion was within the Disney fan sites and the fact that it made absolutely no difference. He didnt come out and say it, but his tone was basically "are you kidding, it makes zero difference." Basically he stated that while a few people are aware, that kind of stuff just never penetrates to decision makers because the few who are aware dont consider it important. He did say they do so much market research that there is no way that what a few people say on fan sites would change the direction of milti-million dollar projects. I did believe him on this, but I also couldnt imagine anyone on the inside saying anything other than what he did, as a response to that question.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>He did say they do so much market research that there is no way that what a few people say on fan sites would change the direction of milti-million dollar projects.<< I certainly believe that (Carsland is a great example), but it does make me wonder how projects like the castle walkthrough and revamped Mr Lincoln ever got approved. I doubt Joe Tourist would have responded to a survey asking for an AA show about a single US President.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>projects like the castle walkthrough and revamped Mr Lincoln<< My guess: The first wasn't a multi-million dollar project and thus not applicable to this discussion, the second was done for political reasons. Republicans are big fans of Mr. Lincoln and get snippy whenever anyone threatens his continued presence at the Park, even though they don't actually go see him when they're there. And DL is in the middle of Orange County ...
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I would doubt that it's that. First of all, an awful lot of present-day Republicans are not particular fans of Mr. Lincoln (see Rand Paul's aide, a.k.a. "the Southern Avenger" who seems a bigger fan of JW Booth than Lincoln.) I think the drive to save Mr. Lincoln is much more from nostalgia-heavy DL fans who remember when Mr. Lincoln was the latest in jaw-dropping amazing. To them, it just seems "wrong," somehow, that Mr. Lincoln wouldn't be in DL forever. It's not like Lincoln is a fad or a character people will forget eventually ("Gadget's" Go Coaster, anyone?) He really is important American history, obviously, and there's so little of that left in DL that the Lincoln show sort of stands as the last link to that particular part of DL history, quite apart from politics. Probably entwined for some people, but for most I think it's just nostalgia and the preservationist ethos we see crop up here time and again.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>The first wasn't a multi-million dollar project and thus not applicable to this discussion...<< I don't remember where I read it, but I seem to remember reading that it cost $17 million around the time that it reopened. That's an awfully specific number to have just made it up in my mind, but maybe I did. As for Lincoln being a politically-driven change, I highly doubt that. Perhaps WDI-politics, but nothing related to real politics that people follow in the news. Heck, it was done at the same time that they were updating MK's Hall of Presidents to include the newly-elected Democrat (and say that electing him was America's greatest achievement, in so many words), which is located in a much much more conservative area of the country, so the logic of trying to appease Republicans just doesn't make any sense to me.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Well, looks like I misremember the number, but post #175 on this page (from 2010) is claiming $22 million on the castle walkthrough <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-115800-P-18.asp">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...P-18.asp</a> Given that it can cost Disney thousands for a simple sign on a building, it's easy to see how the walkthrough could cost them millions. While it seems simple, there's a lot of detail and expensive finishes packed tightly in there, so it could add up to multi-million. Still, anything beyond about $5M seems a little insane, even for Disney
Originally Posted By mawnck Here we go. Did a Google search for this, and just look where it led me: >>(1973) But all those pretty words from Disneyland's PR staff didn't matter much to members of Orange County's Republican right. All that they knew was that "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" -- a show that celebrated the life and accomplishments of the GOP's shining symbol -- had been closed. And that meant that these folks weren't happy. So, for the next two years, Orange County residents bombarded Disneyland with letters -- demanding to know when "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" would be re-opened. An excerpt from one letter pretty much captures the tone and content of the thousands Disneyland management received: "How dare you remove Walt Disney's greatest achievement and gift to America?" After two years of being hammered by the Republican right, the Mouse cried Uncle. In early 1975, Disneyland's Opera House closed for a complete overhaul. When the theater re-opened in June, the refurbished facility was now home to a weird hybrid of a show: "The Walt Disney Story featuring 'Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln.' "<< >>(1990) Here was what seemed to be the perfect venue for the Disneyland version of the "MuppetVision 3D" attraction: a theater that had never been used to its full potential. The prominent location of the Main Street Opera House -- just inside the entrance to the park -- guaranteed the Muppet show high visibility as well as tremendous foot traffic. ... What is known is that by August 1990, the media was all over the story and it was having a field day. "Kermit May Depose President" screamed the headlines. Soon Disneyland was swamped with cards and letters, its switchboard overloaded with calls, from Orange County residents urging the Mouse to keep Kermit out and/or keep "Mr. Lincoln" right where he belonged. It was 1973 all over again. Only this time in spades. The current Disneyland management -- which seemed totally clueless about all the problems the previous management team had had when they tried to put a new show in the Main Street Opera House -- never knew what hit them. Since the Walt Disney Company had yet to officially announce that the "Kermit the Frog presents MuppetVision 3D" show was coming to Anaheim, they weren't really in a position to deny the leaked information. And yet here were all these reporters calling, asking for confirmation on the story. To make matters worse, the Mouse had quietly scheduled Disneyland's "Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln" show to close on August 26th without setting a reopening date. Orange County residents offered this up as definitive proof to the press that the Imagineers were already trying to sneak the new Muppet show into the Main Street Opera House. Which they were.<< <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID115410.asp">http://www.laughingplace.com/N...5410.asp</a> (Lincoln stuff starts on page 3)
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Ok, so the 1970's version was revived (assuming everything Jim Hill says is 100% truthful) because those darn conservatives in OC wanted to see the 16th President. I was thinking more about the 2009 version, when the show was restored (to roughly the 70's version) after the haitus with the 50th film, and the earlier haircut version. While apparently Disney played to local political preferences in the 70's, I have a hard time believing that the modern TWDC, a global multi-armed conglomeration where all things must be 'Disney'-branded blockbusters lest Iger turn to dust, would play by those same rules. Southern California has changed a lot in the ~40 years since then, people's cult-like adoration of historical figures has changed a lot in the ~40 years since then, and Disney's approach to almost everything has changed a lot in the ~40 years since then. Assuming it was the reason that Lincoln was revived in the 70's, I still have trouble believing that's the reason for its most recent lavish makeover
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Basically he stated that while a few people are aware, that kind of stuff just never penetrates to decision makers because the few who are aware dont consider it important. He did say they do so much market research that there is no way that what a few people say on fan sites would change the direction of milti-million dollar projects." I wouldn't expect otherwise. And if I was a stockholder, I'd be pretty pissed if the decision makers were making decisions based on what they read on message boards.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I still have trouble believing that's the reason for its most recent lavish makeover<< I would think that the reason for the recent makeover was that Great Moments with Mr. Scissors was such an ill-conceived idea that they had to do *something*.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "We specifically talked about how unpopular the choice of Carsland for DCA expansion was within the Disney fan sites and the fact that it made absolutely no difference. He didnt come out and say it, but his tone was basically "are you kidding, it makes zero difference."" I suppose that in the case of Cars Land it's a good thing they did their homework and ignored the online fan bickering since the expansion has been a runaway hit.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>I would think that the reason for the recent makeover was that Great Moments with Mr. Scissors was such an ill-conceived idea that they had to do *something*.<< Just think if they had waited a few months longer before beginning that refurbishment. Once they saw the box office success of Alice in Wonderland, they could have made it another Depp/Burton collaboration and put in that long-rumored Edward Scissorhands attractions...
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <1973> And there's the flaw right there. Today's GOP ain't 1973's. Today's is packed with people who aren't that fond of old Abe. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vintageusa.com/123html/060311117.html">http://www.vintageusa.com/123h...117.html</a>
Originally Posted By planodisney Abe Lincoln is extremely popular with ALL Americans. The polls all show that to be the case. Don't let radical idiots on either side convince us, the majority of Americans, that we are so much more different from each other than what we really are.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Most of us are pretty sensible. But the ones who aren't who make a lot of noise are definitely not the ones today who would be asking for Lincoln to be retained. That really is a function of DL nostalgia heads more than anything. I semi-fit into that category myself. Part of me would hate to see him go... though I could live with a smaller theatre (since the current one is never full) either in the current space or even moved to FrL.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros When I was trying to think of places that Lincoln could fit in Frontierland, my immediate first thought was the shooting gallery space. Too soon? Plus, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be big enough, and would require major modification to be converted into a theater, not to mention it would displace the park's only revenue-generating attraction
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Someone once suggested a log cabin exterior up in the ranch area. It wouldn't have to be nearly as large as the current theatre.
Originally Posted By mstaft "Abe Lincoln is extremely popular with ALL Americans. The polls all show that to be the case. Don't let radical idiots on either side convince us, the majority of Americans, that we are so much more different from each other than what we really are." - Thank you!
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>oc dean, that was one question I have wanted to ask for a long time. This area was actually the lengthiest discussion we had. ....... most of the actual decision makers do not and couldnt care less. He specifically talked about how unpopular the choice of Carsland for DCA expansion was within the Disney fan sites and the fact that it made absolutely no difference. He didnt come out and say it, but his tone was basically "are you kidding, it makes zero difference." Basically he stated that while a few people are aware, that kind of stuff just never penetrates to decision makers because the few who are aware dont consider it important. He did say they do so much market research that there is no way that what a few people say on fan sites would change the direction of milti-million dollar projects. << Thank you very much planodisney for your time and explanation. I always had an ill feeling they blank most to all, of what's said online by fans. When they hit a home run, as they did with BVS, and Cars Land, then I say - "Fine. You didn't need to hear anything from us." But if these are the same decision makers who approved TL:98, DCA 1.0, WDSP upon opening day, cartoon rides in Tomorrowlands, rather than content that matches the land's theme, Journey Into Imagination missteps, and the list really goes on .... Then they must admit when we 'fans' do have a legitimate complaint that shouldn't be ignored, because, seriously ... they aren't perfect. And what makes it most disheartening, is when their possible "artistic blunders" are there, set in concrete, for the next decade or so ... until the errors are finally addressed, and fixed. I'd be curious to know, why did they go back to changing Ariel's hair and some animation bits in the Little Mermaid ride? Did they notice the need to fix those things on their own, or did fans notice them, and mention it? Also - >>He did say they do so much market research<< Oh my ... Disney has changed so much. I'm sure Walt didn't DO market research back in the early/mid 60s ... to see that the public wanted a pirate ride on a boat, with robots swashbuckling around. Back then ... the co. just knew how to think ahead of the public. Now they need "market research"? God help us! As if the public are in any position to influence artistic decision making. So ... they ignore fans who understand Disney history, but listen to Joe Tourist? terrific! So, if Joe Tourist says in one of those "market research" sessions - Would you like to see Mike and Sully in a "Stand Up Comic Routine" in Tomorrowland, and says "yes" ... they'll do it? I see a problem. But they don't.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "So, if Joe Tourist says in one of those 'market research' sessions - Would you like to see Mike and Sully in a "Stand Up Comic Routine" in Tomorrowland, and says 'yes' ... they'll do it?" No. You seem to have a poor understanding of market research.
