Originally Posted By Socrates Are there any stockholders here who look at this from a business standpoint? Socrates "The unexamined life is not worth living.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth One doesn't have to be a stockholder to understand the importance of making business moves. In reading these posts, it's clear to me that the disney fans here are, well, lets say "passionate" about their feelings as to how things get done, or not done or should be done in the manner Walt Disney would have wanted things done. (I had to re-read that. I confused myself there) I think I see where you're going here though. Sometimes one makes business decisions that are unpopular with the groups who grew up with Disney, and seen things done in the traditional Disney style. (which is loved) Some are reluctant to see "styles" change. Or direction change. If attendance begins to drop, you need to change. If the changes bring the numbers back up, then from a business aspect, you did the right thing. Changes are difficult for a number of us to accept. The wheels of time keep turning, and changes become necessary. Some won't be popular with the older crowds. As long as the changes are quality changes, and those changes don't lose the direction that Walt set, then change is good. If the changes go off the track, you better believe Disney lovers everywhere will let the decision makers know they are unhappy. And that's necessary too.
Originally Posted By BrerOtter <<<As long as the changes are quality changes...>>> That's just it. Much of the time, they are not quality changes. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the ratio of new/updated/"quality" events and attractions to the amount of advertising they're doing is appalling. Yes, I'm a die-hard Disney fan, grew up at DL and happen to love WDW, too. But you don't have to be a Disney nut to feel profoundly ripped off by the fact that, despite all the advertising, DLR is doing relatively little to celebrate the 50th. My mother lives far away from SoCal now, and has trouble getting around, but she had talked with some enthusiasm about making the effort to visit this year because of the 50th. Having been back a few times this summer, I can honestly tell her not to worry: the only thing she's really missing are ungodly crowds built up by the hype. None of this has anything to do with being a Disney nut who doesn't want to see change. Sorry to get off topic, but I wanted to clarify my point of view. Yes, it bothers me as a Disney geek, but I'm level-headed enough to stand back and realize that they've really dropped the ball all the way around on this.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth "Dropping the ball" is a matter of opinion and perspective. It's not 1955 any more. Our society has changed dramatically since then. I often wondered to mysell what Walt Disney himself would do in 2005. What would HE approve of or disapprove of. Would Walt Disney understand todays thinking? Would he, or could he adapt to todays society? For him, it's no longer the 1930's. Imagine how HE would feel. Imagine what he would go through trying to hold onto the values he has, the values his parents instilled in him, and still come up with ways to blend yesterday with today, and make it all work. Pretty tall order. I guess the good or bad we see in todays Disney boils down to a matter of opinion, and what we like, and would like to see Disney be. Some of us will be unhappy. Some of us will be accepting. Some of us will be thrilled. If the attendance numbers climb, then we will see the current course continue. If the numbers drop, then the head honchos at Disney had better get back to the drawing boards...AND.....listen to their strongest supporters.....The people on these boards.
Originally Posted By BrerOtter Jim_n_Ruth, I think you may have missed what I was saying. You asked about shareholders. Take Disney out of the equation for a moment, if ANY company trumpeting their 50th anniversary with this amount of advertising offered so little as a payoff, would it make sense? This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Disney the idealist, 1955 vs. today, or anything like that. It has to do with the fact that they're promising the celebration of a lifetime and there's virtually NOTHING new. NOTHING, meaning nothing for anybody, Disney geek or not.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider Well maybe not in DL if all they got was the Buzz ride and the re-opening of Space Mountain - but the advertisement was about WDW, which ha gotten Soarin' from DCA, Cindarellabration from TDL, L,M,A from the Disney Studio in Paris, Turtle Talk, the Pooh Playground and Wishes I believe? The castle also got re-decorated too (I think DL did too but I'm not sure). I'd say 2 big name attractions 3 shows a playground and a castle re-decoration are notable changes to the park worthy of advertising. Are they all great? Probably not from hearing some reviews here, especially the playground, but it's still there. And it IS as a business, did they attract more guests? You yourself said that there are "ungodly crowds built up by the hype" which is what a business wants....so yea it was a good business decision in that sense and I don't see how "ungodly crowds" equals your analysis of it as receiving "so little as a payoff"?
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth Soarin over california in Epcot, the stunt show in MGM, new stage show at the castle are what comes to mind. Now if there are other things I have not heard of, that remains for me to see when I get there on October 28th. Just what do you think should be done? More rides? More shows? More fireworks? More pardes? What do you think should be added? I'm not trying to put you on the spot at all. If it seems that way, please forgive me as that is not my intention. I see a lot of complaining on these topics, but few good ideas. You have a company that occupys over 40 square miles in Florida. They have more to do, to see, to participate in than oany other organization on this planet. I can't help but be curious as to how much more people could want or expect.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 >Take Disney out of the equation for a moment, if ANY company trumpeting their 50th anniversary with this amount of advertising offered so little as a payoff, would it make sense< McDonalds celebrated their 50th this year -- what did you get from them ? Playboy started in 1955.....ohnevermind here --hahaha The payoff for us is the fact that 50 years later DL is still around and relevant. Most of the amusement parks I grew up with are long gone. I understand how DL people might feel they were slighted -- but also you had the entire park renovated ( badly needed over the last few years -- and got DCA recently ( ToT also) -- DL works under something WDW does not -- that is a space restriction. And to put much more in , something would have to go and then Holy Heck would break loose here for fans of those attractions. You got to keep your sub ride while WDW got a cheap cheap cheap playground. To answer socrates -- I have been a shareholder for well over 25 years ....and my kids are both shareholders so yes, let me put that hat ( green eye shade ) on and give you that perspective as I separate it from my love of Disney one. Advertising such as the commercial here that has us in an uproar , if it generates interest in WDW and subsequent income....is fine on the surface. Disney does have to be careful not to alienate it;s hard core base of support, that is for sure and they are wel aware of that. However they are also aware that 90% of people attending WDW for instance wouldn't know for sure that Walt never stepped foot in WDW after it opened. Does that mean you mislead them? no....but is this really misleading or simply artistic license ? As a stockholder I do not want to see Disney stray from their core values and business, yet they have done so often...sometimes it is ESPN...sometimes it is go.com. One never knows.....however I do know that Disney cannot stay stagnant in 1955 and not do some things to stay relevant...and yet cannot deny their heritage. They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. But the majority of stock is not held by us Disney fanatics on this board or any other....it is bought in blocks and belongs to pension plans and the such...and ALL those entities care about is ROI. Period. If the advertising such as this is because those empployed by Disney are unaware of the facts -- then I have a different concern long term...but I believe this is harmless in itself....when we see commercials of George Washington or Abe Lincoln in modern setting, we don't go nuts -- and take it as the artistic license / forced persoective that it is. We have main stream GM cars being sold on commercials with music that was once banned from AM airwaves.... that bothers me more than this...but again it can also be viewed as those of us who were once disenfranchised for our musical tastes, now run things.....what a kick in the pants for the 60's censors huh ?
Originally Posted By BrerOtter <<<"ungodly crowds" equals your analysis of it as receiving "so little as a payoff"?>>> Yes, it does. The advertising is creating a lot of hype and driving a lot of people in, and there's very little payoff. Please keep in mind that the majority of the crowd on an average day is made up of APs, unlike Florida. <<<Just what do you think should be done? More rides? More shows? More fireworks? More pardes? What do you think should be added?>>> Please check my first post on this topic. I'm talking only about DL, not WDW. All of the above need to be added, particularly when the DL ad seems to imply that you'll get all this. <<<McDonalds celebrated their 50th this year -- what did you get from them>>> McDonald's isn't telling everybody to come celebrate McDonald's because they're turning 50. Disney is doing that. If McDonald's told everyone in their ads that there were "new surprises" waiting for them (a direct quote from the DL commercial, BTW), they should have something to show for it - not just changing the uniforms, adding sesame seeds to a few buns and taking away the Big Mac only to bring it back two years down the road and tell everyone it was new and improved, which is the equivalent of what has been done at DL. Please know that I was at WDW in January, and loved just about all the new stuff. It IS reason to celebrate. But the park that deserves the attention, the park that "started it all," is being hyped up for virtually no reason. It makes no sense to me.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<the park that deserves the attention, the park that "started it all," is being hyped up for virtually no reason>> It's being hyped to bring in people, and it has worked, because the park has been mobbed all summer. Admittedly, the park didn't get all the outrageous changes that were rumored...and perhaps you are disappointed that those things didn't come to pass. But the tweaks they have done are great, IMO. SM is better than ever, the plussing of JC is neat, the castle looks wonderful, the park overall is SPARKLING, the new fireworks is THE best I have ever witnessed.
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth Please check my first post on this topic. I'm talking only about DL, not WDW. All of the above need to be added, particularly when the DL ad seems to imply that you'll get all this. Disneyland has limited space. That's why Walt made the move to Florida. The celebration is about Disneyland turning 50. But with limited space in Disneyland, the celebration options are also limited. But the park that deserves the attention, the park that "started it all," is being hyped up for virtually no reason. It makes no sense to me. No reason at all? Disneyland IS getting the attention.....at every Disney park everywhere in the world. No matter how big other Disney Parks are, or may become, Disneyland will always be the starting point. Disneyland can proudly boast of being the first, with Walts hands on it first, setting up what is now an empire. Disneyland will always be the home ofof the Disney empire. No other Disney park can claim that. Californians have every right to be proud of their Disneyland.
Originally Posted By MrToadWildRider Well people are arguing about an advertisement about WDW and then you complain about DLR's ad campaign which would be a different topic. Yet again, you said it yourself they're getting people through the gates and I don't know the figures of APs at DLR but I thinkit's safe to assume the majority of the guests maxing out DL's capacity recentlly are not APs. There is probably a much higer ratio of APs in DL than in WDW but I still doubt that the majority of people in the park are APs and not ticketed guests. Furthermore, I think what you're implying is the APs who go for the 50th at DLR and get not much different will be disgruntled and that's true - but will that stop most of them from not returning to DLR? I doubt it... Hype can kill enjoyment - it did for me at Fantasmic at MGM - but that doesn't mean I don't still enjoy it I just enjoy it less than I could've and I still go to Fantasmic! when we visit. I'm not saying NO one will wait for their AP to expire and swear off Disney in some dramatic fashion as some sort of perceived vengeance against the company - but I don't think that'll be too common and in the end the 50th Celebration with all its hype will prove to just be a money-maker. And a money-maker is good business.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "No reason at all? Disneyland IS getting the attention.....at every Disney park everywhere in the world. No matter how big other Disney Parks are, or may become, Disneyland will always be the starting point. Disneyland can proudly boast of being the first, with Walts hands on it first, setting up what is now an empire. Disneyland will always be the home ofof the Disney empire. No other Disney park can claim that. Californians have every right to be proud of their Disneyland." Althought this is true for the Disney fan, and historically, by Disney's blurring of the lines between the parks, Disneyland gets marginalized. What that means in the long run, is that the average tourist will have absolutely NO idea that Disneyland exists (that's already coming true), and Disney will have an uphill battle trying to pull visitors from outside of California to Disneyland once they add a third park and try to make it a larger destination resort. If Disneyland decides to go the regional route, then fine, but with the expansion they've been doing over the years, it seems they're wanting a little piece of that WDW pie. All this ad is doing is making people forget that there are two Magic Kingdoms in the US, and generically making the focus on WDW. In all the advertising, it's not been blatantly clear that it's Disneyalnd that's turning 50. Yeah, we know it, but the average American doesn't, and probably doesn't care either. It just boils down to sloppy marketing.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 See I don't think this add nor any other could change the demographics of who attends DL - who attends WDW and who attends both. I as a Disney fanatic go to both -- and my work travels take me to both coasts. But the simple matter is WDW has 4 parks - 2 water parks and a boodle of land etc.-- the space DL will never have. The last stats I saw showed over 50% of the people who attend WDW drive. That includes a ton who drie from my area - Chicago - and Pennsylvania and New York and Jersey etc. 1200 miles is a doable trip in 2 days-- and many of us have friends along the way in Altanta or elsewhere. Also people tend to add on days to go to the space center etc. A driving trip to DL has 2 issues -- 1/ - 2000 + miles and 2/the Rockie Mountains in the way - especially in wintertime. It IS NOT a driving trip for the heavily populated east coast or even the Midwest. So you can call it regional if you like because from a driving perspective it is. Nowit also lies in the most populous state in the country so let's not shed any crocdile tears here. But I think you are making this out to be Disney pushes WDW as a vacation destination for no good reason when they should be pushing DL. I have just given you two good reasons -- and the third is the cost of things in LA vs. Orlando. For many families on a budget that is a back breaker. I used to live in Newport Beach and have relatives there - the cost did not bother me ( exept I decided I wasn;t paying that money for a cracker box house)- so I moved back to Chicago. Most people if there went to LA and wanted to go to a trendy restaurant would die when they saw the menu prices....and people complain about traffic on I4 -- geez- try the Harbor Freeway at 4 PM --- So DL is what it always will be, the first and maybe the best of all Disney individual parks -- no one can ever take that away and for those of us who grew up on it... that is wonderful. But you will never turn it into a clone of WDW vacation wise-- nor should you want to
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Well, I'm not saying I want to, but it seems Disney wants to. So, if Disney does want to do that, then this is foolish marketing. I do agree with you about the demographics, but I still think Disney is homogonizing itself. It's happening with the DTV sequels too. It just blurs the line between all of their products.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 On the movie sequels I am in there swingin' with ya' -- I hate them all and tome they cheapen the original classics. As for as homogenizing the rest -- it seems that as the world shrinks, this is happening to everything, Disney not alone and unfortunately they either become a world economic player or risk complete failure. So although we may not like it, I do believe a part of that is necessary. Who would have thought that you'd see a park in Tokyo and another in Hong Kong 25 years ago ? Also both of these park destinations pull directly from visitors to DL......
Originally Posted By Imagineer This >>...but in case you haven't noticed they've been making money and they've been making millions happy every single year. What's so bad about that?<< "In case you haven't noticed they have been making money while destroying parts of the Disney Company and it's history at the same time. And they have been making "investors" happy every single year. What's so wrong with that?" (Plenty wrong) Closing traditional animation. Closing the Disney stores. More veteran Imagineer layoffs. Losing Pixar (Hope it comes back). Cloned attractions at the parks. Lack of quality in movies, animation and products. Bad safety and maintenance at the parks. Cheapquel DVD's, etc., etc. Of course a company can make more money each year, but that does not mean it is the best for Disney Studios and the theme parks. They can sell off the theme parks and the studios and make tons of money in other non Disney businesses. Wouldn't that be great?! Not! (
Originally Posted By Jim_n_Ruth I just don't see disneyland as being slighted or forgotten, when the celebration is about Disneyland turning 50. Disneyland is where it all began BUT....it can never compare to Walt Disney World. If Walt himself was content with Disneyland, why did he go to Florida? Because his biggest dreams could not be fulfilled in California due to lack of space. As time goes on, and Walt Disney world grows bigger, the sensible business move is to promote it heavily to succeed. This is not an intentional slighting of Disneyland. It is the realistic and sensible promotion of the biggest project Disney ever built. I live on the East coast. I've always wanted to fly to California see where it all began. I share the reverence for Disneyland. While at WDW one trip, I met up with some folks who have been to Disneyland. I expressed my sentiments to them. Much to my surprise, they told me that once I had been to WDW, I would be bored in a few days at Disneyland. They told me that Disneyland is no match for WDW. Of course, I was disappointed to hear that. That didn't change my reverence for Disneyland. Nothing can change that. Disneyland will never lose its identity. I'm confident that future generations will know of Disneyland because of folks like us. You know what? I still want to go there.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost ^^^^Do not believe that. Disneyland is great. WDW is big and great. They are comparable in many ways, you just have to set your mind to a smaller scale. I went for the first time a couple of weeks ago. Many things that I saw had that familier ring that came from so many visits to WDW but it had it's own personality and feel. Standing on Main Street and seeing, basically, what Walt Disney once saw is nothing short of incredible. Some of the attractions, though sharing the same name as the ones in WDW, are different enough to cause your mouth to drop open. Some are not as good, some are way better. I never really thought I would ever get to California and Disneyland but when the opportunity presented itself, I went for it and I am so glad I did. When I made my reservations they sent me a Disneyland Brochure that showed Walt Disney all alone walking out of the castle on a rainy day. At is incredible to be able to stand in that exact spot 50 years later. At the risk of sounding slightly touched, you could almost feel like you were there with Walt. If you get the chance....go!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And they have been making "investors" happy every single year. What's so wrong with that?" (Plenty wrong) < Plenty wrong in check the stock price over the past 6 years -- has lost value -- was $117 share -- then split 3 for 1 = $39 / share. When was the last time it came close to $30. So let's not sell this as making shareholders happy -- they're not - that as much as anything led to Eisner being gone as teachers pension funds etc. were threatening to sell huge blocks of Disney stock -- it was close to being removed from the DOW 30.
