Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, I like Disney stuff. Don't like sports, though. I'm an odd sort. I went to a baseball game this last summer, could not hold out till the end. It's just dull to me.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<That's part of what love is. But it ain't the whole magilla.>> <Yeah, unfortunately, it kind of really is. It's just your brain doing things. > Well, no it isn't. People sometimes do something that their heart tells them to even when their brain is telling them it might not be the best idea. I don't think we're going to agree on this.
Originally Posted By jonvn Your heart doesn't tell you to do anything. It's all inside your head. I like Mimi's breath mints. They have a nice chocolatey flavor.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I disagree, jonvn. I don't think it's all inside my head. And i'm not going to see a doctor about that.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I am going to try to satisfy one of jonvn’s questions, the real problematical one… “Why do you believe?†Keep in mind, it’s just my two cents worth. As a bonus, I will even respond to the question of “What makes your religion true and others erroneous?†But alas, I am getting bogged down in the pre-game. Batter up! You have to stick around to the end, to get the really noble answers (you know, the one’s that “they†might take my hat, pin, and tie tack away for.) Here is WHY I STILL have faith in God and profess to be a Christian. And I don’t sense I’m much of an exception. 1.)All religions, when spoken of formally (academically in Universities) are constantly referred to (NOT as religion but) as “Religious Tradition.†This is an case in point of why. I was born into a household that attended a Southern Baptist place of worship in a diminutive town in south GA. Our forefathers (going back several generations) were as well Southern Baptists. From childhood, I was educated in all sorts of things about God, Jesus, the church, most of it incredibly simple, and extraordinarily pure…share, treat others as you want to be treated, obey your teachers and parents and so on. Any 5 year old youngster really isn’t able to grasp the concept of the Trinity or the Priesthood of Believers, and you certainly don’t want to tell them that they are going to burn in hell evermore if they don’t believe in God at that immature age. So, as these morals and ethics were spoon fed into me as a child, I accepted them devoid of all questions. I cannot ever remember “not knowing†at least the name Jesus, and at minimum associating that with Jesus being the son of God. Therefore… Jonvn, are you with me? Here is answer #1: I first believed in Jesus and God, because I was taught to believe, expected to believe, and certainly coerced to believe, before I truly had the opportunity or capacity to make that decision objectively, or on my own. 2.) At what time can a child “decide†on his own? I have no idea, but for me it was around 9 years old. Being very blissful, and out of harm's way, and confident that my religious tradition was just fine, I did not begin to doubt anything about what I was taught until around age 9. I began to realize that there were choices. The world was no longer full of only Southern Baptist Christians, but there were all sorts of other religions. Some of these, like Jews, did not believe in Jesus being the Son of God at all. So at this age I began to question things I was taught. Some questions were: Will I go to heaven when I die? How do I know I will go to heaven? What is hell like and how can I avoid THAT place? What is the devil really like? How did the devil come to be? How long has God been around? Where did God come from? Where is heaven? What happens to people who never got a chance to know Jesus? How can this God of love send people to hell? AND THE BIG ONE… If there is a god, why do bad things happen to good people? And many other questions. The point is, this is the age where I was beginning to perform abstract thought on a much larger scale. That is to say, I began to apply reason and logic to my religious traditions, which created new questions, which … in turn needed new answers. Why? My child’s mind sought a face that I could touch, or a hand that I could hold, or at least an audible voice of God that I could hear, something objective. Here is answer #2: There was no true logic to my Southern Baptist religious tradition from a pure “abstract thought†point of inquiry, which sought absolute and objective evidence of God. There still isn’t. 3.) My mom, realizing I was “of age,†invited our pastor over to discuss my questions. Not only were my questions okay to ask, but they were welcomed. These questions meant that I was “ready†to make my “decision†to follow the true doctrine of Christianity, and that was to… openly claim that I believe in Jesus, and that I accept that He is the Son of God, and that I am a sinner, and that I confess my sin and ask Christ to be my savior, by Him having lived a sinless life, and by Him having died on the cross to pay for my sin, and by Him having risen from the dead, symbolically and literally breaking the bondage of death (which until now was the only reward for man, being man was sinful, not perfect, and could not be with God, being God is perfect and sinless, you know the whole “wages of sin is death†and all) and that all one must do to be saved, (and who wants to go to hell?) is to simply confess sin, believe that Christ is the Son of God, ask for God’s grace through Jesus, and go on seeking the will of God in this life, expecting a reward in the next. Yeah that is a mouthful, and all the stuff that we all already have heard in various forms, but think about all of that from the point of view of a 9 year old boy. One minute he has questions, all sorts of really good questions, but in the next minute he has all the answers! Incredible. Just imagine, a religious tradition that has all the answers to all the hard questions. I’ll have some of that! And all of these answers, though they didn’t give the dreaded monster of abstract thought it’s answers, they certainly made “abstraction†easy. What does that mean? I’m no psychologist but…think about a chair. If I say to you, “I sat in a chair yesterday.†You won’t wonder, nor care what kind of chair, nor what exact chair on this Earth it was. Your mind simplifies the details away in order to deal with the “now.†That is the process of “abstraction.†It is a process that separates and interchanges ideas with objects, and objects with ideas. We all do it, all the time. What if every time you heard something, you had to know all of the details so that you could understand the idea or concept. Not with me here? Take the “chair†for example. I am now sitting in a chair. We all have seen objects called chairs. We all have an idea of what a chair does. Do we need to know the exact object that I am sitting in? I mean there are millions of chairs on the planet, so which one am I sitting in? No, we abstract that away, exchange the object for the idea, and go on with our day. It doesn’t matter that my chair is a $49.00 Office Depot, black, leatherette colored, rolling, office type, the exact chair that is pictured here: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2bb8sp" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2bb8sp</a> One thing that is absolutely necessary for anyone to accept any religious tradition is this psychological process of absolution. Answer #3.) When I was younger, I sought concrete answers and proof of my religion, before I would truly believe. However, I was given a lot of philosophy that made it easier to simply use the process known as absolution, ( I traded my need for concrete objects like touching the physical face of God, and a need to hear an audible voice of God, for the ideas and concepts of God as presented to me by my former pastor.) It was a very easy and simple jump. We all do it all the time everyday in many other ways. If your wife says, “I am going to buy a chair today and…†You get the point. You don’t need to see the chair, or know which chair, you accept the concept of the chair and that suffices. 4.) “Faith†or ridiculous self denial and delusion? Now all of my questions were answered. Please don’t make me drone on and on about the individual answers to my previous list of answers, because I do indeed have them. Just know that as a 9 year old boy, all of my questions were philosophically answered. Now the idea or concept of “faith†was the last thing given to me. The pastor basically told me that if I go ahead and accept the concepts of “salvation, religion,†et al, that I will receive my concrete and real proof in the next life. So I am in effect skipping actually seeing and touching a chair, for the idea of or concept of a chair. This is where all of the gray area comes into play in religious tradition. And this is where we are asked as believers to have (a small word with a huge meaning) “faith.†Just accept it, conceptually, ideally and go on. Was my ability to simplify or use abstraction used against me as a child? Was I preyed upon and suckered? Should I have faith? If so, why? What is faith? Is it something real or is it simply a gag order to shut my mind up and make me a robot? Well as I grew older, there began to be real evidence that at least the “faith†part of Christianity was rewarding. I have seen real evidence that faith has a very positive benefit. I have seen first hand, with my own eyes, people who have lived lives of rule breaking, drug use, alcoholism, abuse of various kinds turn away from “bad†and become “good†due to “faith in God.†I have seen one person be healed physically, which some claim was due to her “faith.†I have seen parents begin going to church, get “saved†and really change their priorities. They become “good†(in the sense that we all can agree on what good is) parents and take far better care of their children, and themselves. I could go on and on, but I’ll just give you my personal example. At age 9, I am told that I accepted Christ as I was convinced to do by my church, and that was enough for a long time. Around age 20 it wasn’t enough anymore. I questioned again. At age 20, I was so ingrained with Christianity as taught to me by my Southern Baptist church, that when I began to question my faith, or my beliefs, I had only one way to do so. I had to pray and ask God (just like our Mormon friends here tell you to do) for the truth. Only now, instead of praying for real hard concrete evidence, (I was programmed to do something else) I was praying for more faith, or a greater faith. I was asking God to help me with my lack of faith, which we are all taught from ALL churches, faith is the one thing that you MUST have. Essentially, so many years later, in times of doubt, in times of struggle, I have stopped looking for proof, and continue to look for more faith. Why? I suppose it’s like trying to stop smoking. It’s like trying to stop loving your children. It’s like trying to cut off your hand because it won’t type fast enough. My faith, my religion all these many years later, is now such a part of me, such an integral necessity, such a hope instilled in me, that I can’t let it go, I can’t do without it, why? There have been many times in my life where my faith has been what has kept me together. My faith, has helped me to get through struggle after struggle. My faith has given me direction and guidance. My faith has given me HOPE and you cannot find hope without faith. It isn’t about seeing, or feeling, or touching, it’s simply about believing, about having faith. Answer #4 Why do I still believe as an adult? Because I want to. At this point I am probably not even able, not to believe. I want to believe. I want there to be a heaven. I want there to be God and Jesus. I want it so badly, that I am not willing to go back all those years ago and relive 9 years old and say to my pastor, “You know what? This is all a bunch of bunk, and I need more, I need real hard evidence that requires no process of absolution, that REQUIRES NO FAITH, that is in my face and undeniable, and if you can’t give me that, I’m out!†I don’t want to do that, and honestly, I am probably not capable of doing that. I like having hope for what is eternal. In short, at this point, believing as an adult is a conscious decision. I want to, therefore I do. I left the need or requirement for hard facts and proof behind me long ago. 5.)HOW is it possible that YOUR church the one TRUE church? This is the easiest one to answer. My church does teach that it is right, and that everyone else is wrong. How is that possible? Well it may not be possible. In fact, I don’t think it is possible. What? It’s like this: For this point, I am going to skip the decades old constant fighting between the Southern Baptists and the Mormons over the issue of who is and who is not a Christian, We both know all the sides, all the arguments, and how vehemently our two church institutions love to battle, so let’s not do that here. Let’s just use the term “Christian†as a generic term meaning “those who claim to be Christians.†It is logical, in a sense, that if one religion is correct, for that religion to be correct, others have to be incorrect. I mean without wrong, there is no right. I believe that FOR ME, my religion will get me to heaven. I also have respect for other people. I do not try to convince “them†that they are wrong and I am right, and that I am going to heaven and they are going to hell. I only concentrate on ME, personally, and my family. If other people want to believe in other gods or God in their own way, or if they don’t want to believe at all, I am secure enough in my personal faith that I don’t need to convince them of anything. That may go against the evangelical nature of my church, the “great commission†and what not. So be it. I try to be as positive of an example as I can be, and if someone else sees that and says, “what has he got that I don’t?†then I would be more than happy to tell them what works for ME, not what they need to do for them. Answer #5.) If any of the religions have it right, it only makes sense that others have it wrong. You cannot have right, without wrong, however, I reserve my belief to MY belief. I do not go out and thump my Bible over others’ heads. I think that all religions as institutions are man made, but that faith is God given. No one Christian is “saved†by their church, but by their faith. Why is it that mine is right? Why do I believe that mine is right and others are wrong? What is different about my church? I suppose other than the fact that I have been involved in my faith for so long, there isn’t much different. And if I didn’t think it was right for me, I would have to find one that I thought WAS right. It’s like a brick wall, I passed the bricks about Christians being right, and others being wrong, thousands of bricks ago. Those are waaaaay on the bottom, even in the foundation of my faith by now. Is my religion right for you? I have no idea, but it’s right for me. 6.) Religion is a tool and I use it. What?!?!?! Oh yes my friend. I use it in parenting. I don’t do the old, “…now what would Jesus do?†stuff. It’s not like that. But I do enjoy teachings from other sources going into my children’s’ heads that are in agreement with the way I want my kids to behave. For example, “Children obey your parents…†There are massive amounts of people who believe religion in parenting is totally wrong. There are massive amounts of people who do this themselves. I have loved my faith, and my church, and my religion for many years. I have covered why already. I want my children to have similar experiences. I also want them to have some standard in this world. For me, religion is a good way to instill in them the desire to seek truth, and to seek goodness as they grow. Faith is something that they can turn to for questions. No offense to anyone, but in my personal opinion, I would rather plod through this life with faith in something rather than not believing in anything greater than a cosmos in complete random existence with no divine providence of any sort. There is comfort in that for me, and I want my children to have a start in this religious tradition as well. Answer #6) In my opinion, there is far more good that comes from pure religion of all kinds, than bad. I like it, I want to explore it, and to continue to learn about it and through it. By “it†of course I mean “my way of believing.†I want my family to be on board. I want my children to grow and to mature with a firm Christian foundation. I want to raise my kids in my church and use it as a measure and as a tool, as an answer book for them as they try to make it through life. Bottom Line: 1.) I was taught to believe as a very young child. 2.) There was no true logic to my Southern Baptist religious tradition from a pure “abstract thought†point of inquiry, which sought absolute and objective evidence of God. There still isn’t. If you read this section above you will see why I don’t need it to believe. 3.) When I was younger, I sought concrete answers and proof of my religion, before I would truly believe. However, I was given a lot of philosophy that made it easier to simply use the process known as absolution, ( I traded my need for concrete objects like touching the physical face of God, and a need to hear an audible voice of God, for the ideas and concepts of God as presented to me by my former pastor.) It was a very easy and simple jump. We all do it all the time everyday in many other ways. If your wife says, “I am going to buy a chair today and…†You get the point. You don’t need to see the chair, or know which chair, you accept the concept of the chair and that suffices. 4.) Why do I still believe as an adult? Because I want to. At this point I am probably not even able, not to believe. I want to believe. I want there to be a heaven. I want there to be God and Jesus. 5.) If any of the religions have it right, it only makes sense that others have it wrong. You cannot have right, without wrong, however, I reserve my belief to MY belief. I do not go out and thump my Bible over others’ heads. I think that all religions as institutions are man made, but that faith is God given. 6.) In my opinion, there is far more good that comes from religion of all kinds, than bad. Okay, let the eternal “you still didn’t answer my questions†beat drone on…
Originally Posted By DVC_dad In #3 I did not mean to say "the process of absolution" I meant "abstraction".
Originally Posted By jonvn Well, that is long, and I want to express appreciation for that effort. It was very heartfelt. I'm going to boil it down though, to what it sounds like to me. You were raised in a religion, so you believe it. You had questions, but due to your predisposition to believe it, they were answered satisfactorily for you. You now are a member of the church you are in because it provides you some comfort and familiarity. You think it does good. That is what I got from that. But you say this: "I would rather plod through this life with faith in something rather than not believing in anything greater than a cosmos in complete random existence with no divine providence of any sort." I would say something quite different. The fact that we are alive here, as a random happenstance is an incredible thing to have happened and our lives are precious and we need to take care of ourselves and our planet to protect it from coming to harm. There is no afterlife to worry about, there is no right and wrong in what people think of god, and there is nothing here but what we make of it. So we should treat each other kindly and decently and help those of us who need it, because this is all we have. A lot of suffering in this world has gone on because people want to think this is NOT all we have. That is why I think religion is not beneficial. And Josh? The heart is a muscle. It pumps blood. It gets electrical signals from the brain to do that. I am assuming you are just using a figure of speech, but what you call the heart is just a part of your brain.
Originally Posted By utahjosh The heart is a figure of speech, of course. If it's not my brain, I would call it my spirit. The thing I believe will leave my body when I die, the thing I was before I came to this earth. I don't know exactly how it works in conjunction with my brain, but it does.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I think it is illogical to believe that life as we know it is a "random happenstance."
Originally Posted By DVC_dad In fact, the word absolution, should be abstrction in all instances... Sorry.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad jonvn, yes that's pretty much it. I take no offense whatsoever to that conclusion, and our two views can peacefully coexist. I thought you would be a lot more judgmental. I guess you really are sincere in this thread.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I think it is illogical to believe that life as we know it is a "random happenstance." " For what you say to be true, there then would have to exist something that you simply have no ability to show existing. What you are suggesting is really unreasonable, and it is unreasonable on the simple fact that you can not give a viable and logical reason to believe it. "If it's not my brain, I would call it my spirit." You mean your soul, as it were. "I don't know exactly how it works in conjunction with my brain, but it does." If that offers you comfort. To me that does not only not offer comfort, but causes me to feel sad for the lack of inquisitiveness and interest in understanding the true nature of ourselves, and how we work and why.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I guess you really are sincere in this thread. " Enjoy the rarity of the moment.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'm really not a judgemental person, though people don't want to believe it. I have strong opinions, i voice them sharply. But I really don't care what other people do with themselves or to themselves as long as it doesn't affect me. I don't like tattoos, for example, and think it's a really stupid thing to do. I'll say that. But I'm not going to sit here and say you're a bad person for doing what I consider to be a pretty stupid thing. No one is perfect. Everyone does stupid things. Some people do set of stupid things A, some people do set of stupid things B. That's how it goes.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad If there is no he'll....what about separation from God, how is that really different?
Originally Posted By jonvn "Lucifer was beautiful, smart, cunning, but who was he really?" My father? But this is another thing, I don't understand the entire concept of Satan, either. The character has really kind of morphed a lot, from the accuser to simply evil, depending on who you want to listen to and when. So, do people ever pray for the soul of lucifer? I mean, maybe if he made up with god about things, it'll all be ok. So, how about them having a nice chat over a beer and a game of darts?
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Why do people assume that I am Mormon or LDS when they find out we have 6 kids?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Wow, yet another thing jonvn and I can agree on. My brother has a "terrific" tatoo of the name "Kimberly" on his ankle. Great, since his divorce he is now limited to dating Kimberlys. Smart move there. To most people in the world, the earth was flat until Columbus proved it wasn't. I'm not sure I want to be around the day it is proven that there is a God. (Well, in my case...I won't be around...here anyway.)
