Originally Posted By wahooskipper 6 kids DVC? I don't assume you are Mormon. I just assume you are nuts.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Why do people assume that I am Mormon or LDS when they find out we have 6 kids?" They don't think you're catholic? That'd be my first guess, then mormon. I know people who claim to be born again christians who are lapsed catholics. They have 10 kids, last count. I think that is absolutely terrible. And wahooskipper, tell your brother he can get that tattoo removed with laser treatments. It costs a few hundred per square inch (something like that), and it's painful and slow. Enjoy! "I'm not sure I want to be around the day it is proven that there is a God." I do, that'd be totally cool.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I think the only way God proves himself to non-believers is if he destroys the Earth and then says, "that is it...experiment is over."
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "I do, that'd be totally cool." I think he's talking about the Rapture - which means he'd have been "taken up" to heaven and the rest of us would be "Left Below" to endure all the torments. You know, the funny thing about that belief - only Protestants seem to believe that one. I was raised Catholic, and we were never taught about the Rapture. Sure, we were taught the world would end one day and good people would go to heaven/bad to hell, but never anything about this Rapture thing? Strange - I wonder where that came from??
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "if he destroys the Earth and then says, "that is it...experiment is over."" My bad - I guess you weren't talking about "The Rapture". Still, it's an idea that I've never really understood.
Originally Posted By jonvn The Rapture is a relatively recent phenomena and it really has a weak biblical basis. It's been around since the 1800s. It started getting big starting in the 60s with the Jesus freaks. Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox don't believe in it at all. They consider this to be an incorrect interpretation of the bible. There are various passages in the bible you can find on it. You can look at these: Matthew 24:30-36 Matthew 24:40-41 Acts 1:9-11 Corinthians I 15:51-52 Thessalonians I 4:16-17 I think the Catholics say the idea of the rapture is confused with the idea of the second coming of christ.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Your heart doesn't tell you to do anything. It's all inside your head.> Perhaps so, but love can not be reduced to chemical processes.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <In fact, the word absolution, should be abstrction in all instances... Sorry.> I thought so. I didn't think you were gettin' all Catholic on us.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "There are various passages in the bible you can find on it. You can look at these" Thanks jon - I see you visited the same Wikipedia page that I did as soon as I posted about the Rapture. Love that site - so useful. It's interesting that these fundamentalist groups put so much emphasis on the Rapture and the end of the world. I mean, when you really think about it, why should anyone be worried about the end of the world? I would think they would be more concerned with their personal death, since for all intents and purposes, your death is "the end" of your world. Who really cares if The Rapture comes tomorrow or 100 years from now -- I can die at any moment, and according to Christians, will be judged right then. The Rapture just seems to be another instance of causing fear among worshippers to keep them in line - like threatening with eternal damnation or calling people witches. I just don't see where the belief serves a useful purpose.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The Rapture just seems to be another instance of causing fear among worshippers to keep them in line" Yes. And as you say, why should they even care about such a thing? Since they are saved by Jesus, it simply should not matter to them. All that stuff is rather pointless. People who focus on it are very confused individuals.
Originally Posted By Maxxdadd First off, I want to express my appreciation for the thoughtful input people like Jonvn and DVC Dad have put into this thread. And I think it is good to discuss from all aspects... although quite honestly, I think it is important to remember; this is, after all, just an internet posting board filled with the opinions of anonymous people. And perhaps that is why I have seldom ever seen anyone change the opinions they begin with on a discussion thread, because of something someone has posted. Hopefully, we build our sense of faith from the models of those whom we respect, and who have more to base faith on than simply opinion. That is why I appreciate some of the input here; many of you have done your homework. You not only express your view from your own position, you also have taken the time to honestly find answers in legitimate resources. Religion is sort of like guns: not necessarily a bad thing... a lot of good has come into the world because of religion. But in the wrong hands, religion has also been responsible for some of the most horrific things in this world as well. Even Adolf Hitler fashioned his warped sense of right and wrong based on the misguided religious-based interpretations of Christianity by others, and indeed, an enormous amount of human suffering has occurred because of what certain people in power believe.... and feel others should believe as well. But.... Before we throw out the entire concept of religion, afterlife, and eternity, I have to disagree with some of the conclusions some have suggested if we do so. Every society is built on a moral code. Mankind is improved because of it. Think of it: without any moral code, there is no reason to have a concept of possession, of art, of beauty, of poetry... or even laguage. We would simply exist in a constant state of self gratification, taking what we want, when we want it, by however means we see fit. Without a moral code, there are no societal consequences on those who would take from others, and our very lives would be a constant state of fear. Indeed, we now live in a society that has worked very hard to remove and discount any moral structure or limitations... and, as we have seen, criminal activity seems to get more prevalent, and threatening. Humanity flows like water, and without any banks to guide us, we run rampant over each other, like a flood. It is only when the banks of moral structure are in place that we can have any sense of order, or progress. Religion is certainly a man-made concept. It has less to do with God than it does with providing the basis for moral codes around the world. And, because it is man made, it get's twisted into a myriad of perversions, I will give you that. But I still contend that without it, we are as good as dead, worthless, self-centered beings squandering life in an aimless exercise. Why be moral, why adhear to laws, if there are no consequences to our actions? Many of you have chosen to believe there is no God... or more accurately, to not believe, period. That's fine. Your choice is certainly one you can live with, and that works for you. However, try to understand that for many people, the structure of religion is the thing that keeps many people together. You may think of them as weak, or pathetic, or mindless drones cowtowing to an imagined force. But can you honestly say that your insight is more valid than theirs? Isn't there some outside possibility that you are wrong, and they are right? That is the human condition: we all exist, trying to figure out what this thing called life is. And for many people, life here is a prequel to another, eternal existance. And it is by these people that our entire civilization came into being. Unlike any other entity on earth that we know of, humans are the only beings with the capacity to conceptualize in eternity.... otherwise, we are simply animals. Just food for thought.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad The Tribulation, the rapture, and the second coming are three distinct events, and are taught as such. It is however true that many evangelicals confuse the rapture with the second coming, and there is also cunfusion between the way beleivers will ne held accountable vs. the final judgement. I don't findcthe teachings of prophecy concerning the end of times to be confusing, but then the Southern Baptists typically spin the Bible very very well. I might add I no longer attend a Southern Baptist church, I attend a Church of God denominational church, but again being raised Southern Baptist, I don't lack for a solid layman's Bible knowledge, as spun by the SBC of course.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Maxxdadd, I agree that hardly anyone changes their mind about anything they read on a message board. That wasn't my goal, in fact I only went into such great detail because my huge post was 200 posts into the thread. My thinking is that only a few people would read it anyway, mainly jonvn. And trust me, I don't ever try to change jonvn's mind.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <That is the human condition: we all exist, trying to figure out what this thing called life is. And for many people, life here is a prequel to another, eternal existance. And it is by these people that our entire civilization came into being. > Actually, the earliest civilizations (Egyptian, Chinese), had very different concepts of eternity, gods, etc. than we do now. Western civilization? The Greeks and Romans formed the basis for that, and of course they had a system of gods and mythology that we now recognize as, well, mythology. So it is not necessary to have religion per se to have a civilization. It is necessary to have a moral code, but although the two are often intertwined, they are not the same thing.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I don't ever try to change jonvn's mind." Best for all, I suppose. The thing about the rapture that I'm reading online here is that some mainstream protestant churches are not going for it either. It really is a new idea and has only taken hold since the 60s.
Originally Posted By jonvn Speaking of talking to god: <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/columnis ts/morford/</a>
