Originally Posted By ecdc 2oony, I think your analogy to love is spot on. And I have great respect for the kind of faith you outline. However, to carry the analogy further, so many religions (Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicals, Southern Baptists, etc.) believe that it isn't good enough for you to love your children. Instead, you have to love their children instead. They're the only ones who really understand love and they'll tell you how and what to love. They won't take your word for it that you really do love your children and that that love is just as special and good as the love they have for their children. I understand that individual members of the faiths I've listed may not all feel this way, but as movements or institutions, they have a clear record of thinking it's their way or the highway.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I understand that individual members of the faiths I've listed may not all feel this way, but as movements or institutions, they have a clear record of thinking it's their way or the highway.<< I agree and that's why increasingly I find myself at odds with just about any organized religion sooner or later. There is almost always that "tipping point" you describe that is required. But also, I'm not sure that it isn't also over-emphasized by outsiders of a particular faith. We tend to see and notice the things we're looking for in a religion, both good and bad. To me, all this makes what is really a rather simple and direct concept (Love each other the way God loves you) so overly complicated with rituals, rules and other man-made regulations. (To use a lame Disney comparisson, it's sort of like saying the only real way to be Disney fan is become a DVC member and memorize Walt's quotes and try to imagine what he would think of this or that.) But be that as it may, after much soul-searching and questioning, it took a certain amount of letting go and trust for me to discover my faith. I'm no one's model of an ideal person, nor of a person of faith, so it is difficult for me to explain at times. Love and comfort are the only type of concepts that I think comes close as a means of comparisson. I am not blind to the fact that having faith in an unseen higher power isn't "logical." It's easy to look upon any sort of religion as silliness. It's easy to point out the discrepancies, the flaws, and really easy to find examples of human beings perverting religion to do any number of hideous things. But in looking at things like love and comfort and peace and empathy, these aren't always logical concepts either, but they make life immeasurably better just the same, even though any of those gentle concepts can be exploited and twisted and used to hurt people. That doesn't make them worthless.
Originally Posted By jonvn But part of the deal is that to love and be love requires some faith and trust" But, you see, that involves an actual person that is standing right there who is actually saying things to you and actually is behaving towards you in a certain manner. "Christians believe that Jesus Christ came to earth and made that promise. " And my question is why do they believe it? Why take this on faith? What rationalization has been gone through in order to accept that this is any sort of truth? What is the reasoning? What it sounds like is that the answer I'm getting is "Because I just do." That's not a reason. "Why do you love your child? Is it purely biological" Probably much of it has to do with biology. Why do people like their kids? Because we are programmed to through evolution. If you don't like and take care of your children, your genetic code is less likely to be passed on. So evolution favors those who take an interest in their offspring. "Love is a very difficult concept to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it." Everyone has experienced love. I would think. "Likewise, a religious calling is just as mysterious and complex." So you just randomly picked something to believe in, is that what you are saying? Because it sounds good? Why aren't you a Taoist? Why aren't you a Roman Catholic? Why aren't you a Mormon? Why aren't you a Jew? Why do you think the way you do? For absolutely NO reason? You have no reason for your beliefs? I find that hard to believe. It makes everything you say you believe to be meaningless then. "I think your questions ultimately have no answers." I think there are answers, but they may simply be uncomfortable. And I think the answers are "I just like doing it," or "My parents taught me this." The problem with what I'm asking for people who try to formulate answers based on what their church teaches is that it's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why someone believes something. Not what a person believes. What actually causes someone to accept something like a religion? This is not something that should have a lack of an answer. This is an internal piece of information that everyone ought to have. I'm not asking for God's cell phone number, I'm asking why an individual chooses to believe something. That should be answerable. Quickly and easily.
Originally Posted By utahjosh The answer is, for me, what I feel from the Holy Spirit. I've done research of many religions, questioned my faith time and time again. But the reason I believe is because what I feel God has revealed to me through the Holy Ghost. I cannot deny what I have felt. That is why I choose to believe. That's a quick and easy answer.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>You have no reason for your beliefs? I find that hard to believe.<< I didn't say I had no reason. You're looking for some quick, pat answer, and I can't provide that. It took a long time to formulate what I believe, and it was influenced by a lifetime of experiences. Again, explain "how" to fall in love with someone. You really can't. You also can't really "decide" to love someone. It comes fro a combination of factors, external, internal and etherial. I arrived at my faith the same way.
Originally Posted By jonvn How did he do this, and what did he say? And what makes you think he told you to choose being a Mormon? Because people here who are Catholic have said the EXACT SAME THING to me. People who are "born again" have said the same thing, too. So, that's not really much in the way of an explanation. As I said, I can tell you exactly why I believe what I do. Someone who has these ideas in their head should be able to tell me what the reasoning is.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You're looking for some quick, pat answer," I'm looking for any answer at this point.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I'm looking for any answer at this point.<< Well, I've tried to answer you, as have others. To turn it around a bit, you might say you believe that religion or faith is nonsense because people believe whatever they want to with no provable, peer-reviewable evidence. It would probably be easy for a religious person to look at things in your life, disappointments or sadness as the "reason" why you reject the concept of God. They might be right or wrong, but then again, all this stuff is ultimately unknowable.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Well, I've tried to answer you, as have others." Well, the problem is with the answers is that I'm not hearing much reason. I'm hearing what people believe. No one is telling me why they believe it. Someone says "the Holy Spirit tells me too." I want to know what makes them say such at thing? What exactly did this Holy Spirit do to this person, and how? Why pick being a <<whatever>> when the Holy Spirit fills you when you would think the Holy Spirit would not mislead you. "as the "reason" why you reject the concept of God" There is no rejection, there is just no reason to accept it. And no one here can articulate one. It's not unknowable. You know why you think a certain way. I don't like eating brussel sprouts because they taste bad to me. This is not hard. At least I didn't think it would be. I am not questioning your faith. OR even what it is. You really expect me to believe that people are religious for absolutely no reason at all? This is what you are saying?
Originally Posted By utahjosh "How did he do this, and what did he say? And what makes you think he told you to choose being a Mormon?" This is the hardest question of all. You know that feeling you have of loving your family? At Christmastime? When a newborn baby joins a family? When you just KNOW something is true or right, you FEEL it. Take those feelings I tried to convey, and multiply them by a million. I haven't heard a voice from heaven, but the feeling that has come from heaven is undeniable to me. And that feeling is that The Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, and that what is says is True. That's the best answer you can hope to recieve from a person of Faith. It's all you can expect, and all you'll ever find. If it's not enough for you, then well, I'm truly sorry. "Because people here who are Catholic have said the EXACT SAME THING to me. " I do not have an answer why others claim the same thing. It's such a personal thing, nobody can read the mind or feel the spirit of another person 100%. However, it doesn't worry me that other people say the same thing. I know what I have felt, and it is a personal relationship with God. Personal - as in no other human can understand exactly what I have experienced. I don't know what others have felt, and even if they say they have felt something similar, and that it comes from God, but he's saying something very different, I don't have an answer for that. What I do believe is that they getting a good feeling because of the parts of truth they DO have, and if they sincerly studied the added truth I have, they would accept it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>You really expect me to believe that people are religious for absolutely no reason at all? This is what you are saying?<< No. What I am saying is I cannot articulate to you here how I believe what I do, nor pinpoint an exact momennt where "I figured it all out". That's because I haven't figured it all out, not at all. I still wrestle with this stuff day in and day out. There wasn't a single moment, and in my case, there was no visitiation from a supernatural phoenominon. I am saying that my faith has formed over a lifetime of experiences. In other words, there was no "ah HA!" moment for me, so to speak. I wish there had been, that would have made it easy. Instead, as I said, there is a sense of not being isolated when I am alone, I grew up as a Roman Catholic. I still am, technically. But more and more, my relationship with God doesn't require the rituals and falderal that most religions have. In fact, a lot of that stuff just gets in the way for me. I was a Roman Catholic because my mother was and her mother was. But some of what they preach I do not believe or agree with. So, I'm sort of a religious nomad. I may have it all wrong, but it's where I am at at this point.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Probably much of it has to do with biology. Why do people like their kids? Because we are programmed to through evolution. If you don't like and take care of your children, your genetic code is less likely to be passed on. So evolution favors those who take an interest in their offspring.<< Yes, but many creatures in nature leave large numbers of young to fend for themselves. Why is it, for example, we love an adopted child? Why is it that brussels sprouts taste terrible to you but to another human are delicious? Did you decide to dislike the flavor?
Originally Posted By jonvn "I haven't heard a voice from heaven, but the feeling that has come from heaven is undeniable to me. And that feeling is that The Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, and that what is says is True." I have heard other Mormons say the same sort of thing. That they were praying and they had a feeling come over them that they felt was the Holy Spirit, and then knew it was right. You see, this is what I've been sort of wanting to hear, and you have not yet said. But I suspect you were already in the fold when this happened, and Catholics are already in the fold when it happens to them. It sounds very much like a self-fulfillng prophecy to me. "What I do believe is that they getting a good feeling because of the parts of truth they DO have, and if they sincerly studied the added truth I have, they would accept it." But you see, maybe it's you who is believing only part of the truth, and much of the rest of what you believe is actually wrong. I think this is what the Pope would say. In fact, he has said that. That other Christian religions are "defective." Seems to me that the Pope would be pretty knowledgeable about these sorts of things, wouldn't you think so too? Why shouldn't I believe the Pope in this matter? "So, I'm sort of a religious nomad." Do you dress like a Jedi? What you should say to me, 2oon, is that it simply pleases you to believe in a certain way, and you really don't have much more reason than that. There is no real reasoning behind any of it. It's something that makes you feel better. I don't function that way. I don't believe in things unless there is a reason to. I don't first decide to believe and then search out reasons. Although they have done studies on the human brain. It seems we do things first, no matter how trivial, and then rationalize it afterwards. That is what is going on here, it appears.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Yes, but many creatures in nature leave large numbers of young to fend for themselves." Yes, and they have offspring number in the hundreds at one time, too. "Why is it, for example, we love an adopted child?" Because, as I said, it is ingrained in us to want to take care of children. This is how we have evolved. Other species have evolved differently. A male lion, for example, when he takes over the pride kills all the offspring of the previous male head of the pride so that his lineage will go on, and not that of the previous boss. Not much room for adoption there. "Why is it that brussels sprouts taste terrible to you but to another human are delicious? Did you decide to dislike the flavor?" Yes, actually, I did decide it. I have decided I did not like the flavor. But there is a physical reason for that. It sends a signal to my brain that is not received in a positive manner. There may be some underlying reason for that, which I don't know. But that does not mean I am then going to go ahead and invent a god of brussel sprouts and an entire background of stuff to explain it.
Originally Posted By utahjosh jovn, that post was like the 3rd time I've said I believe because of what I've felt and called the Holy Spirit. And it's the only answer you'll ever get. If it's not enough for you, it's not enough for you. "But you see, maybe it's you who is believing only part of the truth, and much of the rest of what you believe is actually wrong. I think this is what the Pope would say. In fact, he has said that. That other Christian religions are "defective." " Of course you might think that. I've thought that. I've already SAID THE SAME THING, that's why faith is a personal thing.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'll post it again in case you didn't read it in my earlier post: >>However, it doesn't worry me that other people say the same thing. I know what I have felt, and it is a personal relationship with God. Personal - as in no other human can understand exactly what I have experienced.<< >I don't know what others have felt, and even if they say they have felt something similar, and that it comes from God, but he's saying something very different, I don't have an answer for that.<<
Originally Posted By jonvn "And it's the only answer you'll ever get. If it's not enough for you, it's not enough for you." Yes, I've heard you say Holy Spirit now several times. That basically is no reason, because the Holy Spirit tells other people to believe in other things that are quite different. So if it is the Holy Spirit telling you this, then the Holy Spirit tells different people to believe in different things. "that's why faith is a personal thing." That also doesn't really make a lot of sense. You also did not answer the question if your parents are Mormon. I suspect they are. I suspect the real reason you believe as you do is not because of the Holy Spirit, but because you were told to believe as a child. That is hard to admit. And so people tend to invent to cover. Catholics, Mormons, everyone. Sometimes there are things that people personally dislike, so they ignore the stuff they don't, and concentrate on the things they do like, such as 2oon. He dislikes the falderal, so he just sticks to the things he likes, and that's what he goes with. I think it's fine that you have no reasoning or undrestanding of your own beliefs. You can do whatever you want within the confines of your head. But a problem then does occur when you get people, who similarly can't state any sort of reason as to why they engage in religious practice, to try and tell others how they should behave in their lives, or who they should have sex with, or whether they should have an abortion. And so on. Further, if you can't explain why you even believe in this stuff, how can you ever possibly convey the reasoning to a non-believer when trying to convert someone, as I know Mormons aggressively try to do. These are ideas that should come easily to people who believe in something, I feel. How can you say you believe in something when you don't have any reason for it? How do you expect me to understand what you are saying when you can't express it? If there is a god, he did not give us frontal lobes and the ability to reason so that when it comes to him specifically, they should not be used at all. They are there to understand the world around you and to reason and think things through, not to take things on "faith." If I were a religious person, I'd have a list of reasons why I believed what I did. Unless there is an actual reason to do something, I see no reason to do it. You must be getting something out of this that you don't want to talk about. That's all I can figure.
Originally Posted By utahjosh jonvn, I've given "reasons" I believe over and over again. I've expressed why I choose to believe. You just don't like the answers. But I do, and millions of other do, too. I explained the rational expliantions of authority, history, preisthood, etc. I've also given my reason of faith by feeling the Holy Spirit testify to me of the truth of what I believe. It's not good enough for you, but it's good enough for millions of us. (However, the truth is the truth, wheather it's one person or billions of people that believe it.) I was raised by my parents to be a Mormon. That's a big reason why I am. But the biggest reason I still am is the same reason thousands and thousands join our church time after time. The holy spirit testifies to them that it is true. I know you don't like that answer, you don't accept it but it's the ANSWER for me. >>You must be getting something out of this that you don't want to talk about. That's all I can figure.<< Oh, what am I getting out of it? Let's see... A feeling of peace. Stronger family relationships. Inner strength from God. Sound principles on which to base my work and relationships. Friends. Hope for life now. Hope for life after this life. A feeling of forgiveness. Guidence in a confusing world. Answers to life's bigge4st questions like "Why am I here?" "What happens when I die?" "Where did I come from?" A way to serve my fellow man. A little thing I like to call eternal salvation. A reason to get up in the morning. A reason to love, give, and serve. Soemone to talk to every night and every morning who literally knows everything and loves me. A wealth of history and examples in the scriptures on how to live or how not to live. Did I mention peace and joy?
Originally Posted By utahjosh Here is a page full of reasons why people believe it, too: <a href="http://www.mormontestimonies.org/Main_Page" target="_blank">http://www.mormontestimonies.o rg/Main_Page</a>
