Originally Posted By utahjosh Or better yet, visit www.Mormon.org. They have people to chat live with, the link is on top of the page. Ask them any question you'd like!
Originally Posted By utahjosh And if you want a pretty official answer of "How Can I know if this is true," here is what the LDS church as said: <a href="http://tiny.cc/XGDdT" target="_blank">http://tiny.cc/XGDdT</a> Although, jonvn, from what you have said, this won't be enough for you. Although I doubt you have sincerly, humbly tried following the steps that this link talks about with a desire to believe.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You just don't like the answers." Because they are not really answers. "I've expressed why I choose to believe." You've said the Holy Spirit told you something, in some manner. But in the meantime, it tells millions of others (many more millions of others than the number of Mormons in the world) to believe something else entirely. So how am I supposed to make sense of this? "I was raised by my parents to be a Mormon." That's what I thought. There is no shame in this, but this is what people do. "But the biggest reason I still am is the same reason thousands and thousands join our church time after time. The holy spirit testifies to them that it is true." Yes, you claim this, but you have to understand that I see this same claim in every other religion as well. There's a dozen of them. They all claim they are the special one. It can't work like that, unless you are saying that everyone else is lying? Are you saying that other people are lying when they say the Holy Spirit tells them to be a Catholic? If not, then what else could it be? Could it be in their case that it is not really the Holy Spirit? Maybe it is Satan in disguise or some such? I want to know the theology of this. Find out from you leadership on this because I think this is a rather interesting little thing about all these groups. "I know you don't like that answer, you don't accept it but it's the ANSWER for me." It's not that I don't like it, it is just that it can not possibly work, given all the other groups who say the same things. If I went out tomorrow to pick one, how would I know which is the right group? Which group that claims they have the Holy Spirit is the one that really does, and which others are somehow wrong? It is simply impossible. "Oh, what am I getting out of it? Let's see... " What you are saying is that it makes you happy to believe a certain way. You derive a social life out of it and a family bond as well. But as far as answering questions? Sure, if you don't actually probe too deeply. I don't seem to need a "reason" to love, give, or serve. I don't seem to need a reason to get up in the morning, and I don't seem to be all that worried about the life after this. But it seems that you may be. I don't know why, but this is what you say. I don't fault that, as many people are the same way. I don't mean to anger you, really. Or even to challenge what you believe. I am simply trying to find reasonings and reason in your ideas. You seem very strong in your beliefs. I have actually talked to quite a number of Mormons in my life, and know the theology quite well. Some are actually able to tell me why they believe as they do, and they give the Holy Spirit story. But it's not a good one to me, because the Holy Spirit seems to tell people what they want to hear, basically. On the whole, I think Mormons are very nice, well meaning people. Of course there is good and bad in everyone, too. Perhaps there is something just ingrained in us as humans that we must form some sort of pack. Some sort of group that believes the same things so we don't feel so very alone. This is why we have clubs, why we have political parties, and why we have religions. So we can all reassure each other we are doing the right thing. Who knows. I just know that for people who express such strong and fervent beliefs, having no real reason to do so is a very strange thing. If it was about anything else at all, you'd not accept it, either.
Originally Posted By jonvn "isit www.Mormon.org." I'm not interested in dogma. I'm interested in you.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Although I doubt you have sincerly, humbly tried following the steps that this link talks about with a desire to believe." Of course I'm not going to do these things. In order to do these things you have to presume that all this is the truth in the first place. That makes no sense, either. I'm afraid you're not winning me over. Maybe I should try the Lutherans.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm not trying to win you over, jonvn. Just answering your questions the best I know how. If you aren't willing to try those things (or even look at the freaking page) then you'll definitely not believe.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You call it "no real reason." For me, it is reason enough." But your "reason" is not really well thought out for the reasons I gave. If you can give a reason outside the boundaries of the belief system itself that independently corraborates what you say, something tangible and real, then that would be something I could follow more readily. Other people like to see these things, too. This is why Catholics often see images of the Virgin Mary in toast. Maybe I should become a Catholic.
Originally Posted By jonvn " (or even look at the freaking page) " Ah, but I did look at the page. And, no, I'm not going to believe if the main requirement to believing is to first believe.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Because they are not really answers.<< Well, of course they are answers. But they don't square with your view of the subject, so you dismiss them. >>If I went out tomorrow to pick one, how would I know which is the right group?<< Again, you are focusing on one thing here, why one religion feels that it is the only correct one. Not every religion feels this way, that they alone have all the answers. Certainly some do, but others believe in the concepts of grace, and in leaving the judgements ultimately to God. >>I just know that for people who express such strong and fervent beliefs, having no real reason to do so is a very strange thing.<< Several times now, Utahjosh has explained what to him IS a very real reason. Tell me why you love your significant other. Are they perfect in every way? Do they ever disappoint or anger you or confuse you? Then why would you still love them? Is it something entirely logical and rational and easy to explain, or more likely is it complex and personal and multi-layered, and even ultimately surprising and a bit of a mystery?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If you can give a reason outside the boundaries of the belief system itself that independently corraborates what you say, something tangible and real, then that would be something I could follow more readily.<< That isn't faith.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But they don't square with your view of the subject, so you dismiss them." It is not that is not my view, it's that it's not really a very solid reason. I mean, it's just pretty shaky when someone basically says "God spoke to me to be Mormon" when throughout the entire Christian history, people have endured torture, been burned to death as heretics, went to war, and all the rest but the Holy Spirit did not talk to them, or told them some sort of garbled thing that is wrong? How can this even be? "you are focusing on one thing here, why one religion feels that it is the only correct one" Yes, this is one of the things I'm focussing on, as that is what I'm asking about. Why do people believe a certain way. "Utahjosh has explained what to him IS a very real reason." Yes, but then I ask other questions and get no response. Why is that a real reason. How did it come to him, and what makes him feel it is such. "Tell me why you love your significant other. Are they perfect in every way?" Whatever I feel about other people is based on what I see and how they are, and what they do. As a living and breathing person who acts and reacts to me and with me. They actually are sitting right there. I don't need to have "faith" that something is there. "Is it something entirely logical and rational and easy to explain, or more likely is it complex and personal and multi-layered, and even ultimately surprising and a bit of a mystery?" It's pretty logical and rational, actually, if I really had to sit and think about it. People's emotions get caught up, because our emotional response is literally the same as a chimpanzee but there is even a reason you get mad or angry or like or dislike. But we have in our brains a much more highly developed frontal cortex that squelches the emotion and layers logic onto everything we do. Again, if you want to believe in something like this, great. I just don't see any reasoning behind it other than "It's what I believe."
Originally Posted By jonvn "That isn't faith." Why should you even have to have faith? Why require that? What is the point of it?
Originally Posted By jonvn BTW, I'm not telling anyone to not believe anything, or telling them their ideas are stupid and foolish. I just want it explained.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Wait... I HAVE answered your questions. You just don't accept my answers as satisfactory. That's okay, we're free to choose,
Originally Posted By jonvn I don't think you have. For example: What exactly did this Holy Spirit tell you or show you, and how was it manifested? What makes you think it is the Holy Spirit as opposed to just a self directed mental process? But it's ok. I talk to the guys who come to the door until they decide to leave. If you find happiness with being a Mormon, good for you. It would not work for me, obviously.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Whatever I feel about other people is based on what I see and how they are, and what they do. As a living and breathing person who acts and reacts to me and with me. They actually are sitting right there. I don't need to have "faith" that something is there.<< Well, I disagree for the reasons I've already said. If you are in a committed relationship and you and the other person remain "faithful" to each other, by definition that means you behave a certain way whether they are with you or away from you. You believe they love you because they have told you so. Hearing that makes you feel a certain way.
Originally Posted By jonvn If someone says they love me, then someone is actually saying it. It's not the same as pretending to hear someone say it. Otherwise I'd be in a deeply committed relationship with Wynona Ryder this very day. It's not the same thing.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It's not the same as pretending to hear someone say it.<< Ah, and here we have it. You view anyone who feels they have "heard" God as pretending (at best). >>If someone says they love me, then someone is actually saying it.<< Yes, but do they mean it? How do you know? Is it only in the things they do that show you they mean it, or is there ever something more, something intangible?
