Originally Posted By jonvn "You view anyone who feels they have "heard" God as pretending (at best)." Have you actually heard anything? Tell me what it is you feel you've heard. It seems to me that people want to hear something, so they do. "Yes, but do they mean it? " They may, or they may not. But it actually is someone saying it.
Originally Posted By jonvn Again, no offense, but if we weren't talking about "god" then someone saying they hear things or feel things from something is looked at pretty oddly by most people.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Ah, and here we have it. You view anyone who feels they have "heard" God as pretending (at best).<< I agree that we can't necessarily dismiss anyone who says they've heard or felt something from God. But I do think that it's reasonable to challenge it and question it. And this is at the core of my concerns about religion. My perception is that often, it's a politically correct topic where everyone is expected to respect almost anything that calls itself religion. But anyone can claim they've felt anything from God. So to a non-believer, as "un-PC" as it might be to say, there isn't much difference between someone who says "God told me my religion is right" and "God told me to hate gay people." God told a guy named Ron Lafferty to murder his sister-in-law, so he slit her and her infant daughter's throat. I can respect the person who says "I felt the presence of God at my son's funeral." I struggle when someone says "God told me my religion is the right one," because it automatically passes judgment on those who aren't part of the faith. It's tough to respect that and take it seriously when so many different people are doing it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Have you actually heard anything?<< As I stated earlier, no, I haven't had any supernatural experience that has lead me to my beliefs. >>They may, or they may not. But it actually is someone saying it.<< And people of faith believe that Jesus or Muhammed or whoever they believe in said it through the Bible, the Quoran, the Book of Mormon, etc. The nearest comparisson would be getting a love letter from a deceased relative. Imagine a grandparent leaving a note for a future grandchild to read. >>Again, no offense, but if we weren't talking about "god" then someone saying they hear things or feel things from something is looked at pretty oddly by most people.<< Perhaps, but even though you reject the comparisson to love, empathy, etc., there are a great many things we think or feel that may or may not be in line with what other people do.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But anyone can claim they've felt anything from God.<< Absolutely. As I stated earlier, it is very easy to find examples of people perverting a religion to do all sorts of unspeakable things. My faith is that no God would tell people to fly airplanes into buildings killing thousands. If I'm incorrect, I'm screwed. But I cannot imagine that ever being something a loving God would condone or want people to do.
Originally Posted By jonvn "My faith is that no God would tell people to fly airplanes into buildings killing thousands." It seems theirs does. They likely have no better explanations than what I've gotten here. So, which one is right? The problem with all this is not that you wish to make believe in your head, but when you try to take this stuff and create public policy about it that then affects me. You have this set of ideas, and I'm supposed to modify my life to suit them? I don't think so.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad JK. I am enjoying this thread. Also I am surprised at how well behaved and sincere you all are. Well done. Please continue.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I have avoided this topic but I must interject about the whole idea of "hearing God". I have only told one person what I'm about to tell you all...and that person wasn't even a family member. Over the course of my life, but more often in the past decade or so, I have been "hearing God" call on me for a specific purpose. Now, I'll tell you, I am about as skeptical and cynical a person you can find. When I first experienced these moments I just ignored them, or at least tried to. On my trip to Italy back in March I experienced more frequent "messages", if you will, and some of them were quite vivid. In fact, one occasion left me weeping like a baby right in the middle of a very large and populated area. Frankly, it was a bit embarassing as I'm the kind of person who could be described as "close to the vest" and rarely...if ever...show signs of emotion in public. Now, have I actually, physically, "heard" God's voice? No, of course not. (Though I did think George Burns was behind me when it happened.) But, there is no doubt what I am being asked to do. What is in doubt is my ability to do it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>you wish to make believe in your head<< Why must it get insulting? I am trying to have a conversation about this, but honestly, saying stuff like this is insulting. Intentionally so. You have said you don't mean to offend, but you don't like the answers people have been trying their level best to share, and then you drop this turd into the punchbowl. >>when you try to take this stuff and create public policy about it that then affects me.<< Well, before you try and cast me as a member of the Moral Majority, I would say that I strongly am in favor of clear separation of church and state and I'm not out to convert anybody. I don't like all the discussion of candidates' religion that we have going on now, and I don't think church policy necessarily makes good public policy. If you are truly interested, more than a year ago I started a thread called "A Question of Faith." 200+ posts of people in a non-confrontational manner explaining what they believe and why.
Originally Posted By jonvn Seriously, and not to be nasty, but I think you should talk to a doctor about this. This is not normal. Really. You should check to see if there is not some underlying issue that needs to be taken care of. This is the sort of thing that people who shoot up malls say. "God told me to." Not that you would shoot up a mall, but what if you were "told" to do so? This is where these sorts of things can lead. I'm sorry, because I don't want to hurt your feelings or anything, but you need to talk to someone about this before it gets worse.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I should "talk to a doctor" before it "gets worse"? Did I say it was a bad thing? And, who is to decide what is "normal"? Is it majority rule? If so, a lot of "normal" things in our past are now perceived as not normal. I got the exact response I was expecting from jonvn but I did not post here seeking his feedback anyway.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And, who is to decide what is "normal"?<< Jonvn. Well, I'm off to have surgery, so I'll talk to you all again in a few days or so. (Made up deity in my head willing, of course.) ; )
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Best wishes 2oon. I'd say a prayer for you...but I might be locked up.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Why must it get insulting?" It's not meant to be insulting, but this is how it comes across to me. How else is it to be taken? You want to believe something, so you do. That's what it comes down to. Why you believe it is because it makes you feel good, and if you don't look too deeply at it, there's no real problem. "you don't like the answers people have been trying their level best to share" Because they are not very good answers. I understand that people are trying hard to answer the questions as best they can, but that doesn't mean the answers are good ones. What it likely means is that there are no answers because people don't understand why they are engaging in something like this. So I've told Josh go and enjoy his beliefs, and it's fine. What's wrong with that? But Josh told me to go to a website for answers. On that website, it tells me to pray. Huh? The circular nature of this is nonsense and is typical of what people who believe in this stuff engage in. In order to pray, you already have to believe there is something there listening. So, it makes little sense for someone like me to engage in something that is basically a pointless exercise. So when he basically tells me to go pray, he's basically telling me to just simply believe in what he's saying, period. That does not work. As I said to Josh, go and believe what you want. I find it impossible to do beleive in such things, because there is absolutely no real reason to. I don't know why others engage in such activity, and apparently neither do they. It just is something that makes them feel good about themselves, it sounds like. This is not being confrontational. This is how it looks to me. If it is impossible to explain what your beliefs are based on, then that's fine. I'm not your judge. I just wanted information which I basically have gotten, just not in the manner in which you would like for me to have taken it. Neither am I trying to cast you as a member of the moral majority, as I was speaking in general. What it comes down to is an irrational and baseless set of beliefs that others wish to force upon the general public. While you may not want to do that, there are plent of others who do. So go sacrifice a chicken on a blood altar if you'd like, as Santeria people do. It's not my concern. People do what they want in this regard because they don't really think too much about things. This is what I now gather. But when pushed, people get defensive and hostile because in their heart they probably know it's a house of cards. In any case, I was simply asking why people think the way they do. I can tell you why I think the way I do. And that is I don't believe in things that I don't know to be true, or can't find out to be true, or have no reason to believe exists. It's not that complicated. I don't make stuff up, I don't invent things in my head that are not there. If there is a god, then he needs to make himself plain to me for me to believe in his existence. Not some vague indescribable feeling, and not by having to take some pre-designed route that makes a mockery of what it is that he supposedly created in the first place. Have your faith or whatever you wish to call it. It makes you happy, so I'm happy too.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Did I say it was a bad thing?" What you described is a common thing that people have, it can get very bad and disrupt your life. "who is to decide what is "normal"? " Weeping in the middle of an intersection is not. Hearing messages from god telling you to do certain things is not. You need to understand that. You need to realize that this sort of thing may be a symptom of something that you should consider looking into. "I got the exact response I was expecting from jonvn" I am being sincere and not trying to be hostile, but you describe symptoms of an illness. I am not a doctor, though. I suggest you speak to one. You have nothing to lose by doing so. This isn't "ramping it up a notch," this is being concerned for the welfare of another person who is describing a condition that may need treatment. Trying to say it is "ramping it up" is a very sad thing to see, when someone describes something like this. I am surprised that you'd let your beliefs cause you to ignore a potentially serious medical condition. And if I'm wrong, fine. But at least you should look into this and make sure you're ok.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Not that I agree with anything you just said but I at least understand your point and, go figure, you were able to make it without being insulting. I would argue, however, that people do think a lot about religion. If they did not, they would not leave a church, or go back to a church, or convert to a faith. If people didn't think about it then the Catholic faith wouldn't be facing spiraling participation and Protestant faiths like Calvary Chapel wouldn't be seeing explosive growth. I think the point made earlier about "faith" being similar to "love" is a good one. I loved various women in my life before I married my wife. How did I know she was "the one" for me? There are certainly no facts to prove it to me. There was no clear moment. But, I didn't ask any of the others to marry me so it was something, wasn't it? I don't need a website or a person to tell me about faith. It is either there or it isn't and to ask someone to define it as ridiculous as you calling someone out because they claim to have it. It reminds me of a line from The Santa Clause movie. "Have you ever seen a million dollars?" "No." "Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist."
Originally Posted By jonvn I've seen a million dollars. And if pressed, It could be shown to me that even more exists. One question that never got answered is why even require faith? What is the point of it? If there is a god, why would this thing require so many ridiculous and impossible to reconcile hoops to go through? Why give us a brain that lets us think things through if we are not supposed to use it? It really just does not make sense, and it is just something people use to comfort themselves because dying is scary and so is being alone. So whtever makes peple happy is lovely. It would never make me happy though, nor satisfy me in any way. Trying to engage in such ideas would simply gnaw away at me and destroy my self-respect. It is not something I would ever participate in, and attempting to do so would be an exercise in self-humiliation.
