Originally Posted By Dabob2 Here's what I think. Religion is not in the realm of reason. No matter what religion we're talking about, it requires a leap of faith to believe it. Various religions claim that you don't even need that leap, that they have the Ultimate Truth, and as that Truth, it is rational to believe it. I don't buy it. I think any religion requires that leap of faith, including my own. It seems to me than jonvn is saying that if something is not in the realm of reason, he sees no reason to believe in it. This is a perfectly legitimate way to view things, and I've flirted with it myself at various points in my life. But it seems to me that not everything in life IS in the realm of reason. Including love. And though I respect a view that requires things to be reasonable in order to believe them, it actually makes more sense to me to say that not everything in life resides in that realm than to try to cram everything in life into it. It requires that leap of faith, and I cop to that. Now, that's dangerous ground and I cop to that too. It can be easily perverted and turned to horrendous ends, as we've seen time and time again.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Dabob...that seems like a pretty competent way of looking at this. Another analogy: No one can prove to me that a man is worth $20 million dollars. And, frankly, I don't think the Yankees can prove that A-Rod is worth $30 million dollars. There is no reason behind it. But, Steinbrenner believes it to be true and thus his salary. I'm not the one writing the check so who am I to say otherwise? I have no intention of making jonvn believe. That isn't my goal. I've just been trying to explain why I do and if others think I'm "sick" and require medical attention then so be it. In case anyone is asking...no, I did not pick up the phone and call my doctor.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Wahoo, no disrespect. But if it was me, I think I would call the doctor if only to rule anything medical out.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper What have I said that makes you think I need a doctor? I have said I beleive I am being called upon by God for a specific purpose. I have said I wept openly in public. For those two things there is a consensus that I need a doctor? No wonder our health care system is on the brink.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Sorry if I misunderstood. But I did read you talk about "hearing God" and getting frequent "messages," some of which were "vivid." Now I don't know exactly what you meant by that, of course, and the ways in which they were vivid - it didn't happen to me. I guess I imagined some "vivid" things happening to me, and if they did, the way I imagined them, I'd want to rule out anything medical. But what I imagined may be completely unlike what happened to you.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I don't think "hearing God" has to be defined as actually hearing an audible voice in one's head. Your conscious tells you what is right and wrong, but you certainly don't "hear" a "voice" representing your conscious...do you? And, a "vivid message" is rather ambiguous, is it not? But, when it comes to religion there is the tendency to automatically jump to very specific conclusions when someone is "hearing from God".
Originally Posted By jonvn "not everything in life IS in the realm of reason. Including love." Well, you know, not to sound unromantic, but love pretty much is a biochemical reaction in the brain. We don't know exactly for certain how it works, but there is a process there. There is a reason it exists.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I don't think "hearing God" has to be defined as actually hearing an audible voice in one's head." You don't have to hear the audible voice in your head. "For those two things there is a consensus that I need a doctor?" Well, actually, yeah. I just have your best interests at heart. I'm really not trying to be mean, but it's something that should be looked at.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'll give you this jonvn...you are consistent. In order to keep our premiums from increasing I'm just going to chance it and skip the doctor. But, I appreciate your concern.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And, a "vivid message" is rather ambiguous, is it not?> That's why I said what I said in #166. I don't know what happened to you.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<not everything in life IS in the realm of reason. Including love.>> <Well, you know, not to sound unromantic, but love pretty much is a biochemical reaction in the brain. We don't know exactly for certain how it works, but there is a process there. There is a reason it exists.> There may be a reason it exists in general terms, but once you get into specifics, one often does things for love that are downright illogical and even counter to one's own interests sometimes. It's more than just chemical processes.
Originally Posted By jonvn "one often does things for love that are downright illogical " It may seem illogical, but there is a reason that it exists, and a reason that people behave the way they do and why things happen. And you can sit and point to it and say there it is.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It may seem illogical, but there is a reason that it exists, and a reason that people behave the way they do and why things happen.> But some of those reasons are themselves illogical. People do things for illogical reasons all the time. We're not completely creatures of reason, as you well know. And trying to reduce love to chemical processes just won't wash.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But some of those reasons are themselves illogical. " The reasons I speak of are electro-chemical in nature. There are various parts of the brain. Among them are the frontal lobes which control processing of logical thoughts and such, and the limbic system which controls emotional response. Different areas of the brain doing different things. "And trying to reduce love to chemical processes just won't wash." That's what it is, though. It is a physical process that exists. That makes it quite a bit different than having "faith" in something that does not. Your brain is a physical object that functions in a certain manner.
Originally Posted By utahjosh It seems to me that jonvn is a person of reason, that's it. No faith or belief is a part of his life. I choose to live a life of reason and faith. I think he's wrong, he think's I'm wrong. Anything more to disucuss?
Originally Posted By jonvn "No faith or belief is a part of his life." Not quite true. I believe lots of things. I believe we live on the planet Earth, and that it is round, and that we are held to the surface by gravity, for example. I have faith in some things, some people. Things that exist. What I don't have faith or belief in are things that don't show themselves to actually exist. Unless I can see a reason to believe in something, or have faith in something, I don't see why I should. That's what it is. No person is a machine.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<And trying to reduce love to chemical processes just won't wash.>> <That's what it is, though. It is a physical process that exists.> That's part of what love is. But it ain't the whole magilla.
Originally Posted By jonvn Yeah, unfortunately, it kind of really is. It's just your brain doing things. Chemicals are produced, absorbed. We don't know how it all works yet. We do have a bit of a handle on how depression works, and are able to produce some drugs that counteract it. It's the same sort of thing. Just a different emotional state.
Originally Posted By utahjosh You know what I mean, jonvn. You aren't a man of faith, your are a man of reason. I am a man of reason and faith. We're different. But we both like Disney
