Originally Posted By X-san ***X, I appreciate your passion, but I still will say there's no need to brand Josh as a "hater." Believe me, I've faced my share of real hate, and real haters, and I know what it looks like and sounds like. And Josh, as far as I can see, is not one of them. Misguided, maybe. But no need to throw around the "h" word.*** I think Josh is a cool guy, I really hope he knows that...BUT on the topic at hand I find his views to be myopic and, yes, hate filled. I really do. I was frankly disgusted by his comments about preferring that orphans remain as such rather than be placed in a loving HOMOSEXUAL home, just because, well, that's gross. I'm sorry, but that falls into the hate zone in my book. And it's really sad that he feels that way, and supports his church in their quest to harm gay people. I really think they could find something better to do with their time than go on yet another religious crusade. PARTICULARLY one as hypocritical as this one, given their dubious past. Just my 2 cents, of course, but I call em like I see em and Josh really disappoints me on this one. Yes, I do feel he is a hater, and it bums me out.
Originally Posted By X-san ***It's when people tell other people that the way their god is is the right way that trouble invariably begins.*** Amen brutha.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Why not keep the conversation grounded in reality Josh.> It is reality to me. You disagree, I know.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I was frankly disgusted by his comments about preferring that orphans remain as such rather than be placed in a loving HOMOSEXUAL home, just because, well, that's gross.> That's not what I said, X. I said I'd put the child in a heterosexual marriage. And if faced with orphan vs. gay couple, I said that was a hard one. I never answered.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I know you might hope that, but they really are set in stone. I know without a doubt that God lives, and the the church I belong to is led by Him.<< So Josh, if I believe that religion will destroy society, does that give me the right to try and pass legislation to outlaw it? Since Americans in the 19th century believed that polygamy was one of the "twin relics of barbarism," did that give them the right to imprison your leaders? What right do you have to try and prevent others from enjoying the same rights you have?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "And if faced with orphan vs. gay couple, I said that was a hard one." The answer to that should be a no-brainer -- why would you ever choose to leave a child in an orphanage when they could be in a loving home?
Originally Posted By utahjosh it wasn't orpahnage vs. gay parents that I was challenged with. It was foster home vs gay parents.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The answer to that should be a no-brainer -- why would you ever choose to leave a child in an orphanage when they could be in a loving home?<< Because love is a sin, plpeters. Abandonment is better.
Originally Posted By dshyates I once had a concversation with a co-worker where I was expressing concern that my kids stepdad beat the crap out of my Ex and she has custody of my 2 kids. She said the state should take my kids because my ex's situation is dangerous and I'm gay. She believes that the state should take my kids away from me and put them in an orphanage because I'm gay. So Josh at what point does bigoted attitutes start harming people.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "And come ask me when the situation really happens." As I said when I asked you this the firts time, it happens all the time. It is happening right now in L.A. County. What's your answer?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I'm not on a quest to HARM anyone.> I know you're not, Josh. That's why I challenged X to consider that you're not a "hater." What I challenge you to understand is that, even though you don't MEAN to harm anyone, your attitudes and the actions that result DO harm people. Because they do.
Originally Posted By ecdc But Josh, that's your message - love is a sin. You don't want these people loving each other. The problem with your entire approach Josh is this: you repeatedly say that you believe, that you feel, and that you're passionate about it. That's fantastic. But it's just a belief. Anyone can claim to believe anything. What makes you right and them wrong, especially on this issue? If I believe something, it doesn't give me the right to take away the rights of others. People did that very thing to your church - do you not care about that?
Originally Posted By dshyates <I'm not on a quest to HARM anyone.> You are on a quest to force your fiath, which is harmful, on others. But you don't care one iota that its harmful as long as you get your way.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And come ask me when the situation really happens.<< SPP has already responded to you on this, Josh. He sees this kind of thing in his work frequently. Believe it or not, outside of happy valley (and even in it) there's children in harms way, and there's gay couples who want children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.
Originally Posted By ecdc Josh, you do harm with these kinds of beliefs. You may not mean to do harm, but you and your church do harm. And you haven't provided a scrap of evidence beyond wishful thinking that the harm you're doing is for a greater good.
Originally Posted By ecdc Oh, and X, you had made a comment several posts ago about my using the phrase "I have to laugh." You're correct, it was unnecessary. However, I wasn't using it directly at Josh, so much as I was making a comment about the larger Mormon culture. Josh's explanation is a common one; it's essentially lip service to "finding out for oneself." Mormons are told to pray and find out that Mormonism and its teachings are divine, with the expectation that they will find out it's true, and if they don't, they didn't do it right or really get an answer.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But Josh, that's your message - love is a sin. You don't want these people loving each other.> I don't want to establish a different marriage into our society. It takes a piece of paper to love soemone?
