Originally Posted By utahjosh <Believe it or not, outside of happy valley (and even in it) there's children in harms way, and there's gay couples who want children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.> There are also heterosexual marriage couples who want children.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It takes a piece of paper to love soemone?<< Then why do you have the piece of paper? So on the one hand, you try and minimize marriage by referring to it as "a piece of paper" then you turn around and tell us marriage is so important you're just trying to save it. Which is it? And I'd like an answer to my other questions. Why does your religious beliefs give you the right to impose your will on other people? Should Muslims be able to bar you from eating pork?
Originally Posted By dshyates What about my situation. Divorced with 2 kids. my Ex is married to a guy who has beat her up 5 times in 3 years. I am a single gay guy. I know the state would chose to leave my kids in a violent situation over putting them with me. Because of ignorant ideology like yours. We are not talking hypotheticals. The girls actually got to ride in the ambulance that took thier Mom to the ER at 2AM after he beat her. And yet the state choses her because she's "married", Man+Wife+Kid+Kid. A model of perfection.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I don't want to establish a different marriage into our society.>> Why? You have yet to actually give a reason for why you don't want to do this? You say that it will bring down society, but offer no proof as to why? You say that it will harm children, but give no evidence as to how? How can you hold so tightly to a position that you can't even back up??
Originally Posted By dshyates "How can you hold so tightly to a position that you can't even back up??" Duh, the church told him to. End of arguement.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "There are also heterosexual marriage couples who want children." I'd like for you to stop avoiding answering the question. There's a 13 year old girl with weight and behavorial issues in foster care right now. She's been there since she was six. She's not all that pretty and she's black. Her parents died of drug overdoses and there are no known siblings or relatives. She lashes out because she's been through so many foster homes she's afraid to form attachments because she'll just be yanked out and put somewhere else again. Above all else, her biggest wish is to be adopted by someone who would give her a home where she knows she'll stay, her own bed, and the chance to make permanent friends. No one has indicated a desire to adopt her except a male gay couple who live in the L.A. South Bay beach area. The schools are good, they're integrated, and she'd have her own room. Can she go home, Josh?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Then why do you have the piece of paper? So on the one hand, you try and minimize marriage by referring to it as "a piece of paper" then you turn around and tell us marriage is so important you're just trying to save it. Which is it? You claimed I was stopping people from loving each other.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<I don't want to establish a different marriage into our society.>> <Why? You have yet to actually give a reason for why you don't want to do this? You say that it will bring down society, but offer no proof as to why? You say that it will harm children, but give no evidence as to how? How can you hold so tightly to a position that you can't even back up??> I believe that this document is true and inspired by God. That's why: <a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/library/dis...,00.html</a>
Originally Posted By utahjosh <There's a 13 year old girl with weight and behavorial issues in foster care right now. She's been there since she was six. She's not all that pretty and she's black. Her parents died of drug overdoses and there are no known siblings or relatives. She lashes out because she's been through so many foster homes she's afraid to form attachments because she'll just be yanked out and put somewhere else again. Above all else, her biggest wish is to be adopted by someone who would give her a home where she knows she'll stay, her own bed, and the chance to make permanent friends. No one has indicated a desire to adopt her except a male gay couple who live in the L.A. South Bay beach area. The schools are good, they're integrated, and she'd have her own room. Can she go home, Josh?> Sure. I'd also do all I could to find a married couple to take her in. If none were found, then sure, that situation sounds like the best alternative. It's too bad a good foster home can't be found for her, too. I know families here that might help. My brother is a social worker just outside of Detroit. I know how sad these situations can be. But I still don't think this is the ideal situation for the girl, but from your story it's probably the best situation.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "I believe that this document is true and inspired by God. That's why:" Which does absolutely nothing to actually answer the question - you're just repeating what your religion teaches. Try looking beyond that and really ask yourself - how does letting gay people get married hurt society? How does it hurt children? Can you honestly answer those questions without invoking your version of religion??
Originally Posted By utahjosh < Can you honestly answer those questions without invoking your version of religion??> "My version of religion" is a huge part of who I am. It influences my everyday decisions as well as my life's goals and plans. I can't ignore it when it comes to any issue. That document IS my personal belief. Where did you get yours? Just out of thin air?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <That document IS my personal belief. Where did you get yours? Just out of thin air? > And I'll add that that document came out after I had established those beliefs - there wasn't anything different in the document than what I had grown to personally believe based on experience, study, scriptures, etc.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "But I still don't think this is the ideal situation for the girl, but from your story it's probably the best situation." The girl thinks it's ideal. She could not care less if the two guys are gay. It's extremely unfortunate you don't.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "It influences my everyday decisions as well as my life's goals and plans. I can't ignore it when it comes to any issue." But it should bother you when your religion takes a stand against something without really being able to back it up. All of the evidence I have seen shows that gay marriages won't hurt society and won't hurt children. Yet, even with all this proof, your church, and you, still claim otherwise. Doesn't that bother you? It (and many other things) certainly bothered me when I was a more active member of the Catholic Church. I looked at the evidence, saw that it didn't match what the Church was teaching, and made up my own mind.
Originally Posted By dshyates So Josh, you actually believe that your current church leaders commune with God and got this legislation straight from the mouth of God?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "But I still don't think this is the ideal situation for the girl, but from your story it's probably the best situation."" Ideal situation? The ideal situation would for her not to be in this mess, yet a heterosexual couple did this to her. We can talk about ideals all you want, but we don't live in an ideal world. All we can do is make the best of situations, such as finding the best permanent homes (not foster care, which is often horrible) for children like this girl. My wife is a teacher and she has all kinds of kids coming through her classroom. The most challenged ones invariably come from "hetero" households. The kids with gay parents are usually very well cared for. Which makes sense. If you really wanted children but couldn't biologically have them, wouldn't you be extra appreciative of the chance to raise one? That's a HUMAN instinct that both sides of the fence share.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder What I can't wrap my mind around is how the Mormons can claim their religion is the "one truth", then in the next breath condemn those who are trying to live their own truth. I've mentioned this in other threads. Who decides which truth prevails? Mormons don't have a monopoly on trying to beat down gays, other religions do it too, but for a religion that is so isolated from others, you'd think they'd appreciate what it's like to be different more than other religions. All the more hypocritical. I'm no theologian, never pretended to be. It's my understanding that nowhere in the Bible does it says gays should be condemned, discriminated against, etc. If that's so, then where does this come from? What's happened to the Golden Rule?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So Josh, you actually believe that your current church leaders commune with God > Yes. Maybe not every day in person, but enough to have God be the one guiding this church. <got this legislation straight from the mouth of God?> The legislation is not from my church. It just just being supported by my church.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <We can talk about ideals all you want, but we don't live in an ideal world. All we can do is make the best of situations, such as finding the best permanent homes (not foster care, which is often horrible) for children like this girl.> True. That's why I said I'd agree she should go with those guys.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Which makes sense. If you really wanted children but couldn't biologically have them, wouldn't you be extra appreciative of the chance to raise one? That's a HUMAN instinct that both sides of the fence share." Boy howdy, you'd think so, wouldn't you? You'd think that would be universally recognized.
