Originally Posted By mele Even if everyone were gay, it wouldn't mean that they wouldn't want to have families. Gay people still want to have children. They might not use the traditional way of getting pregnant, but you can bet there would still be children being born. So, no, even if we were all gay tomorrow, people would still have babies. And those children would ALL be wanted and cared for...not accidents. It seems as if some religious people have such a narrow view of sexuality and the desire to procreate. Don't blame everyone else for your lack of comprehension.
Originally Posted By ecdc The "if everyone were gay" comment is a useless truth. It's also true that if everyone committed suicide then the human race would be extinct. True, but not bloody likely.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <It's also true that if everyone committed suicide then the human race would be extinct. True, but not bloody likely.> So you're saying it's okay to commit suicide? It won't REALLY hurt society, not everyone will do it, so let's just make it okay to do.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Yeah, I'm not really following the whole suicide argument. But I think his point about the "if everyone were gay" argument is valid. That really is a stretch. Gay marriage is going to be legallized and the world won't fall apart. and remember, your church leaders felt the world was going to fall apart if interracial marriage became legal too, but it didn't. Won't you admit they were wrong on that issue? And don't you think they could be wrong on this one too?
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster utahjosh: "Yep. All stuff that fights against God is influenced by the Devil. Doesn't mean there aren't good people not realizing that they are promoting the devil's plans." Harming other people in the name of God is the highest form of evil and the hardest to recognize by those who perpetuate it.
Originally Posted By ecdc Josh, you've completely missed my point. I'm saying that anyone can come up with any "well, if..." arguments and claim it's true. You defend this ludicrous statement by saying "well, it's true." I simply provided another example of something that is technically true, but worthless for actually making an argument.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster eighthdwarf: ""He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for [Homosexuals] that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace".... Note, I substituted the word "Negroes" with "Homosexuals." This was written 50 years ago, and yet the argument still sounds the same - they just have a different target." Wow. Just...wow.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Apparently church leaders can say things that are patently discriminatory and the members of the day will follow those words blindly. But time proves how utterly wrong they were. The "prophet" of today will be seen as a whack-job in the future by the church's own members because of his bigotted views today. I would have a lot more respect for the LDS church if a substantial chunk of its membership would resist such doomed positions.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "I would have a lot more respect for the LDS church if a substantial chunk of its membership would resist such doomed positions." Me too! I would love it if members thought for themselves rather than let their tired old leadership tell them what to believe. But their failure to do so is why so many of us consider them cultish.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I simply provided another example of something that is technically true, but worthless for actually making an argument.<< So what you're saying is, water freezes at 32°F so men should be able to marry sheep? >>remember, your church leaders felt the world was going to fall apart if interracial marriage became legal too, but it didn't.<< It wasn't just the LDS church, either. I'm old enough to have heard first hand the arguments that interracial marriage would be bad for children. And I'm in liberal Northern California, for pete's sake. Point out to people that each and every argument against gay marriage is identical to the arguments against interracial marriage, and you get vehement denials. But it's simply the truth. Because bigotry is bigotry.
Originally Posted By X-san ***I once had a concversation with a co-worker where I was expressing concern that my kids stepdad beat the crap out of my Ex and she has custody of my 2 kids. She said the state should take my kids because my ex's situation is dangerous and I'm gay. She believes that the state should take my kids away from me and put them in an orphanage because I'm gay. So Josh at what point does bigoted attitutes start harming people.*** Wow. That's terrible. If a kid has a parent who's only "fault" is being homosexual, it would be a travesty if the state took the kids away (totally ruining their life!). I wish Josh could come to understand this.
Originally Posted By X-san ***So you're saying it's okay to commit suicide? It won't REALLY hurt society, not everyone will do it, so let's just make it okay to do.*** Why is it not okay?
Originally Posted By X-san ***""He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for [Homosexuals] that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, "First we pity, then endure, then embrace".... Note, I substituted the word "Negroes" with "Homosexuals." This was written 50 years ago, and yet the argument still sounds the same - they just have a different target."*** Okay, it's official. I hate the Mormon church just as much as the Catholic one now. If they had THEIR way politically 50 years ago, I wouldn't be allowed to be married to my lovely ASIAN wife today, nor enjoy the joy and company of my beautiful HALF-ASIAN daughter. Screw that!
Originally Posted By X-san ***If practiced by all adults, these life-styles would mean the end of the human family. <Do LDS church leaders truly believe that everyone will suddenly decide to turn gay? > No. But the statment is still TRUE.*** Actually, you're wrong Josh. The statement is utterly FALSE. You forget that we're living in the 21st century. Even if all humans turned homosexual overnight, that would not mean the end of humanity whatsoever. Heck, even if all humans were to stop having sex (yeah, right), it would not mean the end of the species in this day and age. As a matter of fact, given the overpopulation problems on the planet today, such an event (which would never happen anyway, but still) would in fact be VERY GOOD for humanity. To be blunt, such an event would prevent poor people from making more babies (in-vetro is expensive after all), which would do wonders in terms of ending the starvation and suffering we see in the world today. So, no. That statement is not true. And by the way, to Josh, Elder, et al, I do hope you guys understand that by saying I hate the Mormon CHURCH I am referring to the leadership that makes such horrible statements such as that one 50 years ago that says I shouldn't love my wife...I hope you all know that I don't hate ANY of you guys, and harbor no resentment whatsoever towards you guys for being members of that group. I'm strictly talking about the people who are putting out those statements, the leaders (and not necessarily all of them, though if that was the sentiment of the day then I'd say they are all horribly culpable). Just wanted to clarify that, because I have about 20 Catholic relatives whom I love dearly, but I really do hate the Catholic church, or more specifically, the Vatican and those at the top (let's just broaden this to include "most major religions") who are responsible for some if not most of the prejudice in the world today.
Originally Posted By mele I wouldn't waste the energy, X. Hating someone you think is hateful just makes you more like them.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "If they had THEIR way politically 50 years ago, I wouldn't be allowed to be married to my lovely ASIAN wife today, nor enjoy the joy and company of my beautiful HALF-ASIAN daughter." So does that explain why you live in Japan? And actually I think the church was always cool with Asians - it was just the blacks and native americans they hated. So your famiy would have been safe all along. But thankfully they had a "revelation" in 1978 so everything's peachy keen now (for the african americans that is) as long as they can disregard all the hate-speech spewed by the prophets of god over the last 150 years. I wonder how long it'll be before there's a revelation about homosexuals?
Originally Posted By X-san I don't hate Josh, or any of the faithful types on LP. Far from it. I read what they write very careful, because I care about what they have to say and I think they are thoughtful, good folks (not that I always *agree* with them, of course). I hope that my statement that I hate the Mormon church didn't imply that I hate any of the members. I am speaking STRICTLY about the management (and even more precisely, those who crafted the hateful words 50 years ago and today, and those who endorsed them at a high level).
Originally Posted By u k fan <<< "First we pity, then endure, then embrace"....>>> If written today about gays surely this would read "First we pity, then endure, than we make sure we won't catch anything, then we check to make sure no-one's looking, then embrace" I seriously doubt I'm working for the Devil on this one when we have so many religious bigots doing the job for me. I assume there's somekind of ethereal exchange program going on!!!
Originally Posted By X-san ***And actually I think the church was always cool with Asians - it was just the blacks and native americans they hated.*** One prejudice always leads to another. If they had their way back then, who knows? Same as today.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "As a matter of fact, given the overpopulation problems on the planet today, such an event (which would never happen anyway, but still) would in fact be VERY GOOD for humanity." Interesting you bring this up. Nature has a funny way of correcting problems. I have often wondered if homosexuality is nature's way to slow down population growth and to get us to take better care of the children we have. Kinda sounds like "intelligent design" to me (if I believed in such a thing) which would make it a sin to fight against it. Anyway, just a thought....
