Originally Posted By Elderp "Mark my words, some day some Mormon leader will have to stand up and claim they don't know why Mormons denied gays equal rights." Mark my words, we wont. Marriage is too much at the core of what the LDS religion is about. The church is never going to sanction gay marriages. We may be forced to do them by the government, but it will be forced, never sanctioned. I am with UtahJosh with this one. We are an organization making a stance on our religious beliefs. I have been pondering and praying about this one ever since the letter hit the press. I personally wish we would stay out of it, but the letter in my opinion is clear and it says we have to do something. It basically comes down to whether I believe Monson (the person who wrote the letter) is a prophet or not. I am hoping the church comes out with more information than that letter(I am kind of in standby mode as I have yet to hear anything from my local leadership), but I would be lying if I didn't say I believed homosexuality was a sin. I don't have a great reason why this admendment should go through, but I think it should. I just feel like it is the right thing. I know that isn't logical, but that is how I feel at the moment. I will say as for government and marriage in general I hope I have made my point clear that I believe the government should be out of the loop entirely. More and more I believe there should be no governmental rights or priveledges given to married people. Marriage should be strictly a religious matter. I have a bad feeling where this whole thing is going in general. I can see a day if this passes where the government starts dictating what we can and cannot believe. It might go as far as to a state religion. We can be just like China "believe what you want unless it conflicts with the state, because then we will beat you down." I have already seen on these boards the hatred forming. You want me to see it your way while at the same time you tell me to "F-Off" call me your "Number one enemy." How can I even begin to comprehend your side when the result of your position is so mean spirited? I will say time might prove me wrong on this one, but I just don't think it will. I might be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but you will never find me calling you "my enemy" or telling you to "F-off."
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Originally Posted By fkurucz <<I will say as for government and marriage in general I hope I have made my point clear that I believe the government should be out of the loop entirely.>> This may be the only course of action. Besides, the civil definition of marriage is watered down already to the point of being almost meaningless.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <The gov't has no intentions of forcing churches to do anything of the sort. The gov't will not get involved with the policies of your church.> I agree. I hope that stays the case, and don't see our gvmt doing that. But I believe ElderP was saying that would be the ONLY way gay marriages would be performed by our church.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<The gov't has no intentions of forcing churches to do anything of the sort. The gov't will not get involved with the policies of your church.>> You mean like how it tries to force Catholic hospitals to provide abortions?
Originally Posted By utahjosh As to the government staying out of the way when it comes to marriages, I'm starting to agree more and more. However, I believe our nation will slowly fall apart if the traditional family unit (Mom + Dad + Kids) ceases to be the fundamental unit of our society.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>You want me to see it your way while at the same time you tell me to "F-Off" call me your "Number one enemy." How can I even begin to comprehend your side when the result of your position is so mean spirited?<< I know this wasn't directed at me, but since I believe I was among the first to use the word "enemy" in this context, I'll respond. It's simple: People like you threaten me and mine. If we have to get nasty to defend ourselves, so be it. I am sick and tired of being "nice" on this subject. Live and let live and leave us the hell alone.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF And one more thing... Do you see the gay community picketing outside the Mormon temples, attempting to keep people from joining? No? Didn't think so.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "I believe our nation will slowly fall apart if the traditional family unit (Mom + Dad + Kids) ceases to be the fundamental unit of our society." And allowing gays to marry won't change the traditional family unit one bit. There will still be heterosexual unions, and they will most likely be the majority for hundreds of years to come. But it seems that those against gay marriage are absolutely blind to that fact. What are you all so afraid of?
Originally Posted By Elderp "Do you see the gay community picketing outside the Mormon temples, attempting to keep people from joining? No? Didn't think so." Sorry, but you never been to one of our conferences. I have yet to go to a General Conference of my church where I have not recieved a flyer from a gay activist telling me my church is wrong. There were even protesters at Hinkley's (the last prophet) funeral procession.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I know that isn't logical, but that is how I feel at the moment. > Great. Meanwhile, millions are denied basic rights and inequality is enshrined into law, based on illogical feelings. I don't mean to get down on you personally, ElderP, but can you understand why this stance irks me? Church doctrine is one thing, and you can enforce that on your own followers till the cows come home. But when you use that doctrine to encroach on the civil rights of others who have nothing to do with your church, you have crossed a line.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >> Sorry, but you never been to one of our conferences. I have yet to go to a General Conference of my church where I have not recieved a flyer from a gay activist telling me my church is wrong.<< Try again. Are they preventing you from participating in your worship or trying to shut you down? No? Didn't think so.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Mark my words, we wont. Marriage is too much at the core of what the LDS religion is about. The church is never going to sanction gay marriages. We may be forced to do them by the government, but it will be forced, never sanctioned.<< Except Mormonism has a long history of speaking authoritatively and definitively about topics, then reversing itself and lessening the blow by pretending to treat the previous bans as if they were no big deal. The perfect example is another marriage practice. Mormons in the mid-19th century were as certain about the Principle as you are today about gay marriage. They believed that it would never, ever stop being practiced. They believed that you had to be a polygamist to reach the highest level of the celestial kingdom. Marriage, at its core, is extremely important to LDS theology, practice and belief. But polygamy was just as important to the church, *if not moreso*, than anti-gay marriage is today. First, Mormons were the ones actually practicing polygamy. They had a vested interest in fighting for it and continuing it. But with gay marriage, it's much easier to become apathetic, much like the Priesthood ban. Second, Lorenzo Snow was imprisoned, along with myriads of other leaders. They were so engrained in practicing it that they continued to practice it in secret for a decade and a half after the Manifesto claiming they'd abandoned it. So you cannot say "well, it's really important to us so it won't change." We already have an example of something that did - even about the same general topic of marriage.
Originally Posted By Elderp "Are they preventing you from participating in your worship" No, but they would if they could " or trying to shut you down? " Yes, haven't been very successful so far (shutting down a LDS temple in SLC is a long shot), but they keep trying. People have been trying to shut down the LDS church ever since we started. The headquarters didn't get to SLC just because the real estate was cheap.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I have been pondering and praying about this one ever since the letter hit the press. I personally wish we would stay out of it, but the letter in my opinion is clear and it says we have to do something. It basically comes down to whether I believe Monson (the person who wrote the letter) is a prophet or not. I am hoping the church comes out with more information than that letter(I am kind of in standby mode as I have yet to hear anything from my local leadership), but I would be lying if I didn't say I believed homosexuality was a sin. I don't have a great reason why this admendment should go through, but I think it should. I just feel like it is the right thing. I know that isn't logical, but that is how I feel at the moment.<< Elderp, I've always though you're an intelligent, thoughtful Mormon. Apply that to this topic. Acknowledging that the church is wrong on this issue is not acknowledging that it's somehow a false church, or its leaders are false prophets. You cannot make sense of this issue as coming from God without doing all kinds of mental gymnastics. You have to explain why the God who created us would also create gay people. So then the church comes up with this lame "it's their cross to bear" explanation. But when you view this as merely a cultural issue, it makes total sense. You can disagree and still be a good Mormon. In fact, you'll be a better Mormon because you'll be following truth wherever it goes, like Joseph Smith taught, instead of simply following the flock. I promise you, the church is wrong on this. And whether it will come in our lifetime or not, the day will come when that's realized. You can be the kind of person who stood up and marched with Martin Luther King, Jr, or you can be the kind of person who said "well, I agree with equality, but I don't like this kind of stirring up of trouble." History never looks back on those who argued for the status quo and labels them the heroes; that goes for the Mormon church as well.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Yes, haven't been very successful so far (shutting down a LDS temple in SLC is a long shot), but they keep trying.<< It was done in 1890. The temple was confiscated by the federal government. Why? Because Mormons wanted to practice a form of marriage the rest of the culture thought was evil. Oh the irony!
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>No, but they would if they could<< Oh, brother. Meanwhile, your people are ACTIVELY working TOWARD this marriage amendment, and you're trying to infer that the Mormon Church is victimized. Go cry me a river.
Originally Posted By Elderp "So you cannot say "well, it's really important to us so it won't change." We already have an example of something that did - even about the same general topic of marriage." We were forced to stop practicing polygamy, the only reason the church stopped was because if we didn't the church was going to be dissolved (officially) and all our property was going to be confiscated. Not what I call much of a choice. Perhaps this is what will happen with gay marriage too, luckily we don't rent (for money) out our chapels so we can't get caught up on the contract deal, but I don't doubt a lawsuit envolving a gay couple wanting to be married in one of our buildings.
