Originally Posted By ecdc Elderp, you know as well as I do that the Salt Lake Temple took 40 years to build. The near-completed temple and LDS property was set for confiscation by the government following the passage of the Edmunds-Tucker Act in 1887 (I believe that's the right year). But my original point (and the irony) remains. Mormons lost their rights for practicing a form of marriage despised by the federal government and a majority of Americans. No amount of nitpicking historical details changes that. Do unto others...
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "But my original point (and the irony) remains. Mormons lost their rights for practicing a form of marriage despised by the federal government and a majority of Americans. No amount of nitpicking historical details changes that. Do unto others..." Would you agree, ecdc, that the government did Mormonism a huge favor by forcing them to do away with polygamy? I highly doubt they would be as big an organization as they are had they continued down the path they were on.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < I highly doubt they would be as big an organization as they are had they continued down the path they were on. > The history of a church, even the basic facts, look very different through eyes of faith or just eyes of logic. Just an observation.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "The history of a church, even the basic facts, look very different through eyes of faith or just eyes of logic. Just an observation." Indeed. You say "eyes of faith" I say "blinders".
Originally Posted By utahjosh I can use both eyes of faith, wide open. AND a logical, historical approach.
Originally Posted By jdub >>Marriage should be strictly a religious matter.<< So, you are saying people who are atheist or agnostic should not be allowed to wed? >>>I can see a day if this passes where the government starts dictating what we can and cannot believe. It might go as far as to a state religion.<< That is the opposite of our stated charter, which is supposed to protect us from theocracy, and from being dictated by one single religious school of thought. Sure, that's been tampered with since the very beginning--a religious group even added words to our nation's Pledge of Allegiance--but avoiding tampering by religion is supposed to be the whole point. I am all in favor of a law forbidding me from getting married in a Mormon temple. I am also in favor of a law preventing the Mormons from baptizing me--or others--into their religion post-death.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So, you are saying people who are atheist or agnostic should not be allowed to wed?> Yep. They can live together as a married couple, hold whatever parties or "ceremonies" they would like, and sign up together on all the bank accounts and legal forms as they can. <I am also in favor of a law preventing the Mormons from baptizing me--or others--into their religion post-death.> I understand why people might not like this, but if they dont' believe the LDS church has any authority, why in the world does it matter? It doesn't make you member of our church. It doesn't force anything upon you. It does only what you want it to do.
Originally Posted By jdub >>It does only what you want it to do.<<] CLEARLY, by your response, the wishes of the dead person are irrelevant to the LDS chuch. This is the equivalent of rape. Necrophilia, actually.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Incorrect, jdub. The effects of the LDS baptisms of the dead only have the power you give them. Unless you think we dig up bodies and baptize them. I'd agree that that would be wrong. However, we are a people of respect, so if you never want to be on our list (why in the world would it matter?!) then put it in your will or something. Tell all your family. Contact the church. If it's done, they'll remove it.
Originally Posted By jdub <<<So, you are saying people who are atheist or agnostic should not be allowed to wed?> Yep. They can live together as a married couple, hold whatever parties or "ceremonies" they would like, and sign up together on all the bank accounts and legal forms as they can.>>>> Say, maybe just for poots & giggles, we should do it the other way around! Yehhhh, marriage should only be a governmental function, and then just for nonbelievers! Christians et. al. could have their cute li'l ceremonies, regalia 'n' whatnot, but let's keep the OFFICIAL business, well--you know--official business!
Originally Posted By utahjosh Okay, sounds great, jdub! We'll keep doing our own ceremonies in our temples. I have no problem with that.
Originally Posted By jdub >>However, we are a people of respect<< A people of respect would have NEVER done this act upon Jews, Holocaust victims, survivors or not. Proselytise to the living, but don't claim the souls of the dead.
Originally Posted By utahjosh We do it out of love for anyone and everyone, unless they ask us not to. Then we don't. Is that so bad, jdub?
Originally Posted By utahjosh We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. It's amazing how much Mormonism comes up on these boards...
Originally Posted By dshyates utahjosh. Would you want a satanist to save your soul from the demon god by baptising you post mortum?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <utahjosh. Would you want a satanist to save your soul from the demon god by baptising you post mortum?> I don't care if a satanists uses my name in a ceremony. I don't give it any power. Makes no difference to me.
