Originally Posted By fkurucz I don't understand why anyone is bent out of shape over this. If you are religious, but reject the LDS faith, the the baptism is a futile effort on their part. They can't force you to be LDS. If you are secular its even more futile, because there is no one to accept or reject the baptism. They might as well be baptizing rocks. <<Would you want a satanist to save your soul from the demon god by baptising you post mortum?>> Baptise away. They have no power over me.
Originally Posted By dshyates "If you are religious, but reject the LDS faith, the the baptism is a futile effort on their part." No its disrespectful and is forcing their religion on those that don't want it. Why is this so hard for them to understand. You are telling the dead person you do not accept their personal faith, that you know better, and are taking care of their soul whether they like it or not. If they had wanted to be baptised into the mormon church they would have done so while alive. And I'm pretty sure you guys would be insulted if say the catholics decided to rebaptise because your religion is false, and only they know the way. Bottomline keep your grubby paws off my life. love, and death. Mind your own fricken' business. My soul is none of your business.
Originally Posted By Elderp "So, you are saying people who are atheist or agnostic should not be allowed to wed?" Atheists don't really exist in my opinion, we all have some type of belief. As far as agnostics go it is just another form of belief in my book.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder The topic of this thread was already hashed out starting here....: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-96609-P-53.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...P-53.asp</a> ....not too long ago. It would utahjosh has found himself some re-affirmation since then as he disappeared from the thread once he was slammed for his views. Everything I said in the link regarding the topic just goes double for me now. This "we think we know better than you" mindset, for the lack of an eloquent way to put it, and well, it doesn't deserve one anyway, is absolute crap. I've also appointed myself BlueDevil's counsel here, since he had to go on the disabled list. What I think is lost here, or likely ignored, or worse yet, some just don't care because they know better, is there's a very large group of people the Mormon Church has decided isn't worthy of equal treatment. Human beings, mind you, not some sort of rogue animal. Human beings with feelings, ambitions, hopes, all that good stuff that comes from wanting to be treated as a respected, contributing member of society. The thing is, this same group is tired of being stepped on and run over for personal attributes over which they have no more control than these Mormons do being white, or male or female. Mormons should expect to be called on this appalling, judgmental, arrogant attitude at every turn. If they want to treat their own this way, have at it. But don't dare go waving your money and ignorance around and not expect to get pushed back.
Originally Posted By jdub >>Atheists don't really exist in my opinion, we all have some type of belief. As far as agnostics go it is just another form of belief in my book.<< Whatever, fine, but the question was in his statement that govt. should not be involved with performing weddings. And to recap, he said the Atheist/Agnostic crowd SHOULD be left out of the marriage loop (along with, one must assume, us homos of any stripe).
Originally Posted By Elderp "And to recap, he said the Atheist/Agnostic crowd SHOULD be left out of the marriage loop (along with, one must assume, us homos of any stripe)." Please don't put words into my mouth. I can do that all on my own. I am saying that I think the government should be out of the loop. It would cause less grief in my opinion. Then it would be just your belief vs. mine and they wouldn't have to conflict.
Originally Posted By Elderp I will say this, if it were possible to write a bill to make it illegal to have sex outside of marriage I think I would be in favor of that too. Doubt it would ever pass, but I wouldn't mind such a bill.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I will say this, if it were possible to write a bill to make it illegal to have sex outside of marriage I think I would be in favor of that too. Doubt it would ever pass, but I wouldn't mind such a bill." Oh brother.
Originally Posted By jdub >>Please don't put words into my mouth. << Huh, WHAT?? I was quoting from an exchange between myself & utj, as follows: Me: <So, you are saying people who are atheist or agnostic should not be allowed to wed?> UTJ: <<Yep. They can live together as a married couple, hold whatever parties or "ceremonies" they would like, and sign up together on all the bank accounts and legal forms as they can.>>
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder As long as we're sharing, I'm all in favor banning all churches and religious organizations from contributing any money at all to anything or anyone that would appear on a ballot.
Originally Posted By Elderp ^ I am ok with that. You realize it isn't going to stop churches from weighing in on ballot measures. As with prop 22 I don't think the church is going to use its money for this campaign. Well, I guess that one could argue the letter was written on church letterheard and therefore was a church expense.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "^ I am ok with that. You realize it isn't going to stop churches from weighing in on ballot measures. As with prop 22 I don't think the church is going to use its money for this campaign. Well, I guess that one could argue the letter was written on church letterheard and therefore was a church expense." Oh please, elderp, you're a good guy. Don't say stuff like this. The church's money has been and will be all over this. <a href="http://www.lds-mormon.com/doma1.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.lds-mormon.com/doma1.shtml</a>
Originally Posted By X-san ***I will say this, if it were possible to write a bill to make it illegal to have sex outside of marriage I think I would be in favor of that too. Doubt it would ever pass, but I wouldn't mind such a bill.*** So, it's not enough that your church is actively campaigning to deny marriage to gays, you want to go a step further and make the entire group criminals who deserve to be punished for their actions. And then you wonder why gay people chime in and remind you that you are their enemy? Really gross, ElderP. I've always thought you were a pretty cool person, but this is beyond the pale. Sadly, I've no doubt that this is typical of how many anti-gay marriage people feel. Throw all those sinful criminals in jail, and be rid of them once and for all!
Originally Posted By X-san By the way, almost 100 posts and no Mormon has yet even attempted to answer the original (very fair) question.
Originally Posted By Elderp "Throw all those sinful criminals in jail, and be rid of them once and for all!" Again putting words in my mouth. "By the way, almost 100 posts and no Mormon has yet even attempted to answer the original (very fair) question." Thank you, you have made me realize this is not about a debate, this is about slamming the other side. I am sorry to have contributed at all to this thread. I debated saying anything at all, but I took a chance thinking "hey maybe I can see something" "maybe I can learn more about there view." All I have seen is attacks and vulgarity and it is making me sick. Coupled with the fact I just realized no one is listening here, I see I am in an excercise of futility. I wont be posting on this thread any longer, there is no dialogue here, my position remains unchanged.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Again putting words in my mouth.*** Nope, that's precisely what you said. And as far as "slamming you", no. I really wasn't. I really think that is a good question, and why don't you guys answer it?
Originally Posted By X-san ***All I have seen is attacks and vulgarity and it is making me sick.*** You write a post in favor of completely criminalizing homosexuality, and YOU'RE feeling sick? Wow. What a pedestal you sit on! But whatever, you're not going to reply as usual. Whenever your position becomes too difficult to defend, you vanish.
Originally Posted By X-san Just for the record (since I was accused of putting words in someones mouth). ElderP wrote "I don't have a great reason why this admendment should go through, but I think it should. I just feel like it is the right thing. I know that isn't logical, but that is how I feel at the moment." Therefore ElderP is in favor of legislation disallowing gay marriage. ElderP later wrote "I will say this, if it were possible to write a bill to make it illegal to have sex outside of marriage I think I would be in favor of that too. Doubt it would ever pass, but I wouldn't mind such a bill." Therefore ElderP is in favor of making any sexual activity outside of marriage a crime. As it is obvious that any legislation banning gay marriage would make it impossible for a gay couple to have sex legally under ElderP's preferred laws, ElderP is in favor of making homosexuality a crime. Did I miss anything?
Originally Posted By barboy ////if it were possible to write a bill to make it illegal to have sex outside of marriage I think I would be in favor of that too.//// That is the most unfair statement I have seen here on LP. given: same gender attraction is innate given: Elderp opposes legalized same gender marriage given: Elderp wants to outlaw fornication conclusion: under Elderp's plan homosexuals would be lawfully denied one of life's most fundamental and precious gifts--- the gift of sex. Sounds pretty unfair to me. Since homosexuals can't deny their attraction to the same gender, marry their same gender nor have sexual relations outside of wedlock then I guess they are just S. double O L.
Originally Posted By barboy I wasn't trying to be redundant--- it's just that you beat me to it X with your #98.
