Originally Posted By fkurucz <<No its disrespectful and is forcing their religion on those that don't want it. >> But how are they "forcing" it on me? Will they be somehow coercing my disembodied soul to convert to LDS by performing their rite. And if I have no soul and cease to exist upon death then the joke really is on them.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan From WAY back at post #9: >>The Church does a LOT of good things. So it's really not fair to come down too hard on it when it does something you might not agree with. Just take the high road and bite your tongue, okay?<< If that was directed at me, Inspector, that isn't at all what I said in the "Religion is Delusional" thread. Please read what I wrote again, because nowhere did I ever say a church was above criticism, especially when it starts getting entangled in politics. In fact, I went to great effort to say the opposite.* *(If that wasn't aimed my way and I am being paranoid, well, as dear Emily Litella used to say "Never mind!" ; )
Originally Posted By jdub <<I was accused of putting words in someones mouth).>> I was too--and by the same person! Pretty bizarre...I quote one person, then a second person reads it & says I am putting words in his/her mouth! Ah, well--that wouldn't exactly make this the FIRST-ever Bizarro World thread!
Originally Posted By ecdc A friend of mine who is a gay Mormon unearthed some interesting information on the church's noble "moral" crusade. It turns out that they've hired a PR firm to direct their anti-gay marriage efforts in California. It's Shubert Flint Public Affairs. Here's some information on them: >>Schubert Flint Public Affairs has a strong reputation for promoting Republican candidates and causes. Before joining the firm, Jeff Flint provided PR services for "Moving Forward America," a group which promotes the Iraq war. Of interest, Jeff Flint signed a stipulation with the Fair Political Practices Commission, admitting to violating the Political Reform Act by "failing to report subvendor information" while acting as a campaign manager. He and his co-defendants were requird to pay an "administrative penalty" of $14,000.00 for thier failure to follow the law. You can find the stipulation here: ttp://www.fppc.ca.gov/Agendas/December01/pringleStip.pdf<< This is yet another indication of the shift under the new Mormon leadership towards a much more political approach to this issue. Recall that in the original letter they used language very similar to language used by political commentators like Sean Hannity - referring to the will of the voters being overturned by a court. I hope the opportunity comes for the church to be investigated and to potentially have its tax exempt status revoked. They are of course free to speak out on whichever issues they like. But they've clearly taken a political stand (and it's just completely disingenuous for them to claim otherwise) and they should not be granted tax exempt status while working so hard to fund a political movement.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster It is time to end all tax-exemptions for churches who choose to participate in politics. Some of these (Mormons in particular) are obviously for-profit organizations and employ underhanded tactics to get their way politically. Mormons are opposed to gay marriage for one reason: If gay marriage is allowed, then ploygamy will soon follow. The LDS church has fought so hard (compromising nearly everything it originally stood for in the process) to integrate into mainstream Christianity. Polygamy would marginalize the church and they will do anything to stop that from happening.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster utahjosh: "I don't claim to know every bit of history - or even every bit of doctrine in the LDS Church. But I try my best to be a loving, faithful person, and I continually educate myself on things I feel are most worthwhile." Apparently that doesn't include your own church's history.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Which makes this all the more hypocritical. As I said in the thread I linked to, utahjosh keeps maintaining the Mormon religion is the "truth", and he takes heat for that, yet his religion will pour every bit of resources they have to prevent a group of people from living out their own truth. Truly pathetic.
Originally Posted By u k fan I had this to say last time this came up and I don't really have anything to add so here it is again. <<<For those who don't know I was brought up LDS and I still consider myself LDS (though I haven't attended since my teens), but I just can't reconcile in my head how a church can advise that Jesus left us a new commandment "Love one another" and yet still stand up for and go as far as actually preach discrimination. I have a gay relative which I'm sure makes the difference, but by denying to others what we cherish how are we loving one another? It's just wrong. This issue is the closest I come to being ashamed of my LDS heritage. Why should I have to choose between what my heart tells me is right and where my heart tells me I belong? In the words of a great man (or a fictional character) "Love one another.">>> I always told myself I was proud to be a Mormon and would never deny my faith. Why do they keep making harder for me to do so?!!!
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Because the LDS church is being run more like a business than a religion. Membership has peaked and is starting to decline. The "prophet" has to do something so that the piles of money the church collects through tithing keep coming in. Appealing to the lowest common denominator and becoming a "mainstream" Christian church are all part of the new business plan.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<and becoming a "mainstream" Christian church are all part of the new business plan.>> Unless the LDS are willing to forsake their cherished theology they will be hard pressed to do that. The first to go would be the Book of Mormon. It ain't gonna happen.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <becoming a "mainstream" Christian church> Agreed. Not gonna happen. Although, we'll probably continue to talk about the things we DO have in common with people of other faiths, or other people who follow Christ. It just makes sense in every way.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "Although, we'll probably continue to talk about the things we DO have in common with people of other faiths, or other people who follow Christ." Such as the persecution of the gay community? You definitely have that in common....
Originally Posted By utahjosh The ONLY so-called "persecution" of the gay community I have participated in is in support of Marriage continuing to be between a Man and a Woman. I'll keep it up.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf So, the Supreme Court of California (as well as the governator) decides that it's okay for gay couples to wed and your church launches a campaign to reverse that -- and that's not persecution in your mind?? I think there is a majority of people here feel that very strongly that you are wrong about that.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I think there is a majority of people here feel that very strongly that you are wrong about that.> I don't doubt that. But I also think a majority of people in California agree with me.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "The ONLY so-called "persecution" of the gay community I have participated in is in support of Marriage continuing to be between a Man and a Woman. I'll keep it up." And so you'll always be a hypocrite.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Name one type of harm a gay couple can do to marriage that straights haven't done already, josh.
Originally Posted By X-san Guys, come on. It grosses him out. And his leaders tell him it's bad. What more do you expect from Josh in terms of tolerance. The guys is RELIGIOUS. Give him a break already. Nothing you can say will change his mind, it's already set in stone.
