Originally Posted By utahjosh When your believes your leaders are Prophets of God and Apostles of Jesus Christ, fighting against them doesn't seem the best thing to do. Unless, of course, you Don't really believe they are those things. Would early christians have disagreed with Moses or Peter or Paul on their teachings back then? Questioning their teachings and validating them in your own heart with study and prayer, however, IS encouraged.
Originally Posted By utahjosh And I've given my reasoning 3 or 4 times on these boards why I disagree with Eighth on the subject of the Church and Polygamy today.
Originally Posted By PetesDraggin "Questioning their teachings and validating them in your own heart with study and prayer, however, IS encouraged." Blind loyalty is also encouraged, but that doesn't make it right. What part of this whole ordeal is revelation, Josh? Do you really believe God wants your church to fight so hard against gay marriage? If you do believe this, why does he want this? I understand you believe the whole sanctitiy of marriage thing, but think long and hard about that. How would this do anything to ruin the sanctity of your marriage? How would gay marriage make your sacred vows and covenants with your eternal bride any less amazing than they are now? I understand your feelings on this, because I have been there and I have felt the same thing. I'm just asking that you actually think about this one and not just follow what your religious leaders are telling you to do.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Questioning their teachings and validating them in your own heart with study and prayer, however, IS encouraged.<< I always have to laugh at this. Mormons insist they don't believe in blind faith; they say that members are supposed to pray and find out why the church is true for themselves. The obvious problem is when someone gets a different answer. If a Mormon went and sincerely studied and prayed and found out for themselves that gay marriage was ok, they'd be told they didn't pray right or didn't understand God. In other words, go study and pray, then come back with the answer that agrees with us. And if you don't, *your* the problem, not the church.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Questioning their teachings and validating them in your own heart with study and prayer, however, IS encouraged.<< I always have to laugh at this. Mormons insist they don't believe in blind faith; they say that members are supposed to pray and find out why the church is true for themselves. The obvious problem is when someone gets a different answer. If a Mormon went and sincerely studied and prayed and found out for themselves that gay marriage was ok, they'd be told they didn't pray right or didn't understand God. In other words, go study and pray, then come back with the answer that agrees with us. And if you don't, *your* the problem, not the church.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < If a Mormon went and sincerely studied and prayed and found out for themselves that gay marriage was ok> ...Then they wouldn't really believe in the whole gospel plan of salvation, the most basic important teaching as taught by the LDS church at all.
Originally Posted By utahjosh this dialoge gets confusing...because there is a difference in believe that it's okay to let others do what they want.. ..and believing that what they are doing is a good thing. It's easy to get that mixed up in this discussion.
Originally Posted By dshyates "To preserve the sanctity of marriage", is a nonsensical talking point to justify open bigotry.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm very passionate about my beliefs about homosexuality and marriage in my church. I'm less passionate about forcing others to not do it. But I do agree with my church that the family unit of mom+dad+kids is the very best thing to base our society on. That's why I support traditional marriage efforts.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "I always have to laugh at this. Mormons insist they don't believe in blind faith; they say that members are supposed to pray and find out why the church is true for themselves." Yeah, we had a joke when I was in the MTC (missionary training center for those of you who don't know the lingo). I had a district leader who would order people to do things and if anyone objected his canned response was "pray about it." We had no choice but to submit to the "authority of the priesthood" (not that he asked us to do anything out of order). So anytime anyone disagreed with someone else we always said "pray about it" tongue-in-cheek to win the argument. My experience is that Mormons don't want you to pray to find the answers - they give you the answers and you are asked to pray for confirmation that they are true. There is a powerful difference.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <My experience is that Mormons don't want you to pray to find the answers - they give you the answers and you are asked to pray for confirmation that they are true. There is a powerful difference.> I don't see a huge difference there. You get your information from a billion places. The LDS church gives you some..and asks you to sincerely try it and pray about it. (the sincere part is an important and often left out part)
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "But I do agree with my church that the family unit of mom+dad+kids is the very best thing to base our society on." But you have to see that the best dad+dad+kids or mom+mom+kids is far better than the worst dad+mom+kids family??? So I don't see how you can make a blanket statement like that.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Plus, if you feel you've already received an answer from God that this church was restored and is directed by Him, it is logical to trust that source - especially when that source continually asks you to confirm your testimony and not follow blindly.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "That's why I support traditional marriage efforts." But no one is calling for an end to traditional marriages. The only thing that allowing gays to get married will do is extend marriage rights to gay people -- nothing else. Society won't collapse, and straight people will still get married to other straight people. So your arguement falls apart -- why do you refuse to see that?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf " don't see a huge difference there. You get your information from a billion places. The LDS church gives you some..and asks you to sincerely try it and pray about it. (the sincere part is an important and often left out part)" That's right, I don't sincerely want to know the truth. Nice back-hand. Face it josh, the church tells you what to think and believe and if you don't you are an apostate. Prayer's only purpose is to make you feel better about surrendering your god-given mind to an organization. If you don't think I'm right, pray about it.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "Plus, if you feel you've already received an answer from God that this church was restored and is directed by Him, it is logical to trust that source" Translation: believe in Joseph Smith and everything falls into place (although he practiced the eternal principle of plural marriage while modern-day Mormons don't - go figure)
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But you have to see that the best dad+dad+kids or mom+mom+kids is far better than the worst dad+mom+kids family??? >\ This response is to your logic, I am not comparing homosexuality to cancer, I'm only arguing your logic. Say there is a person with cancer who is fighting it very well, and probably going to become quite healthy soon. And then there is a person with no cancer who is otherwise weak, sickly and basically unhealthy. Wouldn't it be better to have cancer? Why fight cancer? Cancer for everyone!!
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Translation: believe in Joseph Smith and everything falls into place> You know, that is acutally true! Amazing how it works <although he practiced the eternal principle of plural marriage while modern-day Mormons don't - go figure> There are many good and intelligent answers to why modern-day Mormon's don't practice polygamy. Again, you are using a very faulty argument.
Originally Posted By mele So, if you do sincerely pray for the right answer and are given a clear answer that goes against what the church says...what then? Also, if prayer is such a reliable source for answers...why does everyone get such opposing answers? Maybe because God expects you to use common sense and the Golden Rule, also? I find it so interesting how someone who doesn't live my life has prayed and come to a conclusion about what's best for ME. Hey, if you think gay marriage is wrong, don't marry someone of the same sex. But don't presume to know what's best for MY life. Or, if you insist, let me make a huge decision about how you live YOUR life. Fair is fair.
