Originally Posted By ecdc >>You are showing your ignorance on the subject. FLDS are no more a Mormon than a Catholic is.<< That's simply disingenuous. They may not be members of record, but they read the same scriptures, they believe in the same founding prophets and visions up through John Taylor, etc. Indeed, if one believes Mormonism, then the fundamentalists have a much stronger case than mainstream LDS want to admit. They are the ones living "true" Mormonism; it's the modern church that caved to political pressure and finally abandoned polygamy in 1904 with the Second Manifesto when the Smoot Hearings made things too hot for the church. But such facts are uncomfortable for today's Mormons, so desperate to be seen as normal. It makes their anti-gay marriage stance more awkward, since their church was once persecuted for practicing an alternative form of marriage. Mormons try and make this a minor issue; it's important that we not let them do that. Polygamy was *the* key principle in Mormonism for 50 years. Joseph Smith had at least 33 wives, Brigham Young had more. Young taught that to get to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom one needed to be a polygamist. Mormons have changed their theology and doctrine to meet with changing times. So for them to present their anti-gay marriage stance as divine will is absurd, given that just over 100 years ago, divine will insisted they needed to be polygamists.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>They can CLAIM to be anything that they would like-it doesn't make them one.<< The great irony is this is exactly what many Christians would say about Mormons. I have no love WHATSOEVER of the FLDS in Texas and their child brides. I think they got exactly what was coming to them with the raid. However, I also have friends in Salt Lake that are polygamists that don't buy into this child bride nonsense and don't dress like pioneers. I disagree with them and their beliefs staunchly, but they have just as much of a right to call themselves Mormon, as Mormons have to call themselves Christian. It's sheer hypocrisy for Mormons to claim the label of "Christian" but then to deny the label of Mormon to those who accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God and who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.
Originally Posted By Mr F <<What laws about the church and state being separate did the LDS church "violate?">> Forcing their beliefs on EVERYONE. They're reason for supporting Prop 8 was because Same-sex marriage is against their religion, so they pushed to get it passed, and now, in turn, EVERYONE was to follow a law based on religious beliefs, regardless if they are religious or not. It's one thing to have a belief, it's another to enforce it on EVERYONE, regardless of other people beliefs, by making it into law.
Originally Posted By dlkozy If you google fdls you will find info about wisegeek.com's site which says the fdls is.... ...>>>"Completely independent from any other Latter Day Saint church, the FLDS Church is neither ecclesiastically nor organizationally connected to the Salt Lake City based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..."<<<
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains ^^ Everyone agreed they are not part of the Church - but they are Mormons - They follow the book of Mormon - The FLDS is The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. <a href="http://www.fldstruth.org/sysmenu.php?MParent=BELIEFS&MIndex=90" target="_blank">http://www.fldstruth.org/sysme...Index=90</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc ...>>>"Completely independent from any other Latter Day Saint church, the FLDS Church is neither ecclesiastically nor organizationally connected to the Salt Lake City based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..."<<< And this is exactly right. But you'll notice this quote never uses the word "Mormon." There's a difference between "Mormon" and the LDS Church. Just as the term Christian encompasses many churches and belief systems, the term Mormon does as well. Even the Salt Lake church was smart enough to know not to say the Reorganized Church (now Community of Christ) weren't Mormon. The LDS Church can continue to try to distance itself from polygamy, but the connection is there, and it will always be brought up in the context of the gay marriage issue. As others have brought up, they aren't entirely analogous. But it's still worth pointing out the hypocrisy of Mormonism.
Originally Posted By dlkozy >>>" but they are Mormons - They follow the book of Mormon -"<<< No, they are not. They do not call themselves Mormon. Catholics and Protestants and other religions use the Kings James version of the Bible-but they are not all Catholic.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Forcing their beliefs on EVERYONE.> They didn't "force" their beliefs on anyone. It was put up for a vote, they gave their opinion, they voted, and their side one. That's the way it works in a democracy.
Originally Posted By Mr X They forced it. Bigtime. Democracies also work in mysterious ways, such as by utilizing the court system to uphold the rights of minority citizens. I expect to see LOADS more legislating from the bench once President Obama appoints 2 or more new Justices. Yay!
Originally Posted By ecdc >>They didn't "force" their beliefs on anyone. It was put up for a vote, they gave their opinion, they voted, and their side one. That's the way it works in a democracy.<< No, it isn't. When it comes to Civil Rights issues, we have protections against the tyranny of the majority. Which is why a group of "activist judges" decided on Brown v. Board about desegregation, instead of letting the vote of the people determine what was going to happen.
Originally Posted By PetesDraggin >>>" But many of these groups claim to be fundamentalist Mormons..."<<< "They can CLAIM to be anything that they would like-it doesn't make them one." Just like the mormons claim to be christians. The FLDS have just as much right to identify themselves as mormons as the mormons have to identify themselves as christians. Maybe even more. The FLDS is much more similar to the LDS than LDS is to christianity.
Originally Posted By utahjosh The problem of the term "Mormon" is that it has no absolute definition. The term began as a derogatory nickname for members of the LDS church. I would guess that the vast majority of people in American think of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as led by Thomas S. Monson when they hear the world "Mormon." And the LDS church continues to claim that the proper use of the term should only be applied to the LDS church. The AP Stylebook agrees. And then there are some very small groups, offshoots of the LDS church, that claim to be "Mormons." There are also other off-shoots of the LDS church that do not like the name, and ask not to be called Mormons.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<If they've not handled things correctly, then they will need to pay the $5,000 fine or whatever, and they'll probably not make the same mistakes again.>> <A mistake? Is that what you guys are calling a crime these days?> Absolutely. There was no intention by the LDS church to break the law. If they did violate a policy, it was a mistake, even if it was a crime. Am I a criminal because I was pulled over for my missing headlight? I forgot to replace it when it went out that day, and got a ticket that night. Crime? or Mistake?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <"Karger, a retired political consultant, alleged in his complaint that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints failed to report money invested to organize phone banks, send out direct mailers, provide transportation to California, mobilize a speakers bureau, send out satellite simulcasts and develop Web sites as well as numerous commercials and video broadcasts."> If the church funded those things directly, rather than directing their members to do so, that's a clear violation of the law and might even threaten their tax-exempt status. All that is political activity, plain and simple.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If the church funded those things directly, rather than directing their members to do so, that's a clear violation of the law and might even threaten their tax-exempt status. All that is political activity, plain and simple.> The LDS church strives to comply with the law. If mistakes or crimes or whatever happened, then the appropriate penalty should be applied, and the church will comply.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 That penalty might be loss of tax status. I doubt the government will want to go that far, but it definitely might be a warning about next time. Also, if the church funded those activities directly, it can't possibly pretend to think they were not proscribed political activities. That would just stretch credulity a bit too far.
Originally Posted By dlkozy We will have to wait and see what the investigation proves and disproves.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<A mistake? Is that what you guys are calling a crime these days?> Absolutely. There was no intention by the LDS church to break the law.*** You have no way of knowing this. In fact, considering the blind loyalty you have oft demonstrated, your opinion on the matter is way beyond suspect. Given the wealth of your group, and the fact that they are most definitely accepting advice from a horde of lawyers, any "mistake" would be assuredly intentional (probably with the hope that it never be discovered, but intentional nonetheless).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The LDS church strives to comply with the law.*** Again, broad assumptions based on blind loyalty don't carry any weight. You yourself have talked about the group's past fetish with polygamy, in bold violation of the law (I guess god is a criminal too...good thing he changed his mind after a while).
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin ">>>"Yes the Mormon's view of their "Sacred" marriages is that it should only be between a man & a women...or 2...or 3...or 6...or 10."<<< And yet another person lacking correct info" kozy, are you truly denying the fact that polygamy was a part of Mormon tradition? It was an article of faith...just because you're in denial doesn't make the facts go away.
