Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's not about PROVING anything*** And yet, Josh, you thrust your unprovable concepts into the public arena by fighting political battles which are "faith based". Not good. Not good at all. ***You can believe whatever you want. Me too.*** But that's not the way it works Josh, and you know that. You and your friends want to thrust YOUR beliefs upon everyone. You are NOT affording Mr F his right to believe what HE wants, unless it conforms to YOUR beliefs...if he dares do so, you fight him in the legal and political arenas. That's the problem. And there's something very, very evil about it. Not to mention, UNAMERICAN.
Originally Posted By utahjosh My church leaders have every right to speak out on moral issues and encourage it's members to vote on moral issues. It's VERY AMERICAN. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it un-American. Get the facts straight, pal.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh It wasn't the Mormon church that went before judges and complained that the law wasn't fair.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "My church leaders have every right to speak out on moral issues and encourage it's members to vote on moral issues... Get the facts straight, pal." Speaking out is indeed your right. Infringing on the rights of others because of your beliefs is wrong and you know it. Kindly stop playing the victim and please get YOUR facts straight.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Speaking out is indeed your right.> Thanks. <Infringing on the rights of others because of your beliefs is wrong and you know it.> I don't believe that Prop 8 was wrong and infringing on rights. It was keeping rights where they should be. I'm not going to argue that point anymore, neither of us are changing our minds on this one. <Kindly stop playing the victim> I'll defend myself whenever I'm attacked, and you're welcome to as well.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I don't believe that Prop 8 was wrong and infringing on rights. It was keeping rights where they should be. I'm not going to argue that point anymore, neither of us are changing our minds on this one.<< That's the problem here, Josh. You keep defining it that way to justify your actions. But it's no different than when whites said they weren't infringing on the rights of blacks with separate but equal. You disagree with them about that - what makes you right and them wrong? Historically, when one group tries to oppress another group, they insist that's not what they're really doing at all. Kind of like when Mormons were disenfranchised in Missouri, Josh.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “I don't believe that Prop 8 was wrong and infringing on rights. It was keeping rights where they should be. I'm not going to argue that point anymore, neither of us are changing our minds on this one.” Well, at long last you’ve admitted that you have no flexibility in your point of view. Until you stop parroting you church’s beliefs no one is going to take you seriously. Your arguments are weak and filled with contradictions. “I'll defend myself whenever I'm attacked, and you're welcome to as well.” No need to defend yourself. Just come up with a credible argument as to why the State of California shouldn’t issue same sex marriage licenses and you’ll be fine.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <You keep defining it that way to justify your actions.> And others define it another way to justify their actions. What makes them right and Josh wrong?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Well, at long last you’ve admitted that you have no flexibility in your point of view.> Do you? <Just come up with a credible argument as to why the State of California shouldn’t issue same sex marriage licenses and you’ll be fine.> I doubt that. I believe that plenty of credible arguments have been presented. This did not stop them from being dismissed or distorted, and the presenter denigrated.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I believe that plenty of credible arguments have been presented. This did not stop them from being dismissed or distorted, and the presenter denigrated.<< I believe that every argument I have seen against gay marriage dismisses, distorts and denigrates gay couples and their relationships, and as such, is certainly not credible. But I also believe that time and history will prove that ultimately, such bigoted arguments will fail. In a generation, people will look back at this and shake their heads, much the way we do now at antiquated racial views of a generation ago. Which side of history would people want to be on? The side of fairness and equality, or the side that uses tortured logic and base prejudice to prohibit gay marriage. Think about it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And others define it another way to justify their actions. What makes them right and Josh wrong?<< A few reasons: 1) History's on their side, not Josh's. Say it's not like the civil rights movement all you like, the evidence is that it is, and most of the arguments are identical. 2) They have something to lose if they're wrong; Josh has nothing to lose. His life is the same regardless of the outcome.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It wasn't the Mormon church that went before judges and complained that the law wasn't fair." No, they took it to the public and lied about it instead.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Which side of history would people want to be on? The side of fairness and equality, or the side that uses tortured logic and base prejudice to prohibit gay marriage.> I prefer to be on the side that does what is best for society, and not the one that uses tortured logic and hateful rhetoric to argue for recognition of gay marriage.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <No, they took it to the public and lied about it instead.> Just because you disagree with an opinion doesn't make it a lie.
Originally Posted By utahjosh No matter what you or I say, Douglas, they are going to keep claiming that the pro-prop 8 commercial were filled with lies. No matter what we say they will claim we are filled with hate and bigotry. What can you do?
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<<No, they took it to the public and lied about it instead.> Just because you disagree with an opinion doesn't make it a lie.>> It wasn't their opinions that were lies... It was their campaign. It was based on fear, hate, and lies. What in their campaign was truthful?
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<I prefer to be on the side that does what is best for society, and not the one that uses tortured logic and hateful rhetoric to argue for recognition of gay marriage>> How is recognition of gay marriage bad for society?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "<No, they took it to the public and lied about it instead.> Just because you disagree with an opinion doesn't make it a lie." Under normal circumstances, yes, thanks for the logic lesson. However, that's not what we were talking about and you know it. The Mormons purposely distorted case law and facts to fit their own aganda. They lied about gay marriage being taught in schools when it is nowhere in the California Education Code and they lied about it being on the State School Superintendent's website. They lied about the effect of Massachusetts case law on California law when the federal cases related to it would have been persuasive, rather than controlling, regardless of whether gay marriage was on the California books. They played on the fears of people. They lied. They distorted. And ultimately, they'll lose it in court.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "No matter what you or I say, Douglas, they are going to keep claiming that the pro-prop 8 commercial were filled with lies." State one thing that was truthful.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <What can you do?> I guess just shut up and vote against them, and then let them make up reasons why their opinion lost.
