Originally Posted By ecdc >>This site was an attempt to pour scorn on a religious practice so is the opposite.<< See, I guess I see it differently. If this had come out of nowhere, then I'd agree. But this strikes me more as a response. It's satire and humor, sure, but that can often be the best way to make a point. In this case it's basically, "Would you like it if we did this to you?" It's an attempt at showing how disrespectful some people find BFTD.
Originally Posted By mele Do you really think this, of all things, would finally, at long last, convince any Mormons that their practice is offensive and wrong? I really, truly doubt it. And, hey, stop inviting Mormons to my gay after-life party!
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I really, truly doubt it.<< Me too. That said, I need to back up. I've had some fun teasing (okay, maybe hammering) Mormons like Josh on these boards over issues like this. But let's be very clear: There are plenty of thoughtful Mormons out there, just like there's thoughtful Baptists, Catholics, and Evangelicals. I have Mormon friends who go to church every Sunday who support gay marriage and say so publicly. I have Mormon friends who have written articles for Religion News Service and HuffPo on proxy baptism, acknowledging the church's flaws and shortcomings. And I have seen larger wrestling going on in the Mormon community in the wake of Mitt Romney and a broader focus on the faith. Mormons are trying to come to terms with a very simple notion that many of them did not (and many still do not) understand: That a lot of people don't like their religion and think they're kinda weird. For the decade leading up to Prop 8, Mormons enjoyed remarkable, almost universally positive publicity. They basked in the success of the Olympics in Salt Lake, their leader at the time was far more open and amicable than past Mormon Presidents and gave interviews to major media, etc. Mormons mistook this positive publicity for acceptance of them and their beliefs, when really, it was an acknowledgement that Mormons aren't extremists in long dresses who practice polygamy. Golly, they're nice folk who go work at GE and eBay, just like me. I've said this before and I'll keep saying it: Mormons see themselves as normal, mainstream Americans, and they cannot for the life of them figure out why outsiders think they're kinda weird. For the first time, I seem them starting to wrestle with this. Oh sure, plenty of them post insular articles on Facebook about how it's all just persecution and meanness. But others are looking at things like baptism for the dead and going, "Huh, I think I get why people don't like this, and maybe it's time we looked at it and made some changes." You'll never hear that from someone like Josh, but there are a lot of Mormons out there like this.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Sounds like they would be more comfortable in the Community of Christ than in the LDS. They formally ended discrimination against gay people, allowing them full participation in every aspect of the faith. The new doctrine expressly allows ordination of gay priests and gay marriage. (Community of Christ used to be known as the RLDS - Reorganized RLDS - which was an offshoot of the LDS that centered itself around the eldest son of Joseph Smith rather than Brigham Young. It holds many of the same basic tenets of faith, but is much more open than the LDS without the secret ceremonies and closed temples.)
Originally Posted By TomSawyer No, they don't have magic underwear. Or baptism for the dead. Or polygamy.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin I've not chimed in on this until now...But, I have a big problem with baptising someone without their knowledge or consent. Baptism is in most religions a sacred rite. Not to be taken lightly, and denotes a deep personal change. When I was a kid we played baptism and holy communion (with necco wafers), but as an adult I learned what importance baptism has to a Christian soul. I chose to be baptised into my faith as an adult fully understanding it's weight and solemnity. I don't want anyone playing blow up kiddie pool baptisms and Necco wafer communion with my soul. I understand that there is just as much likelihood that I may be just as wrong as they are, but I've made my choice. It's offensive to the extreme to meddle with someone's soul. And yes, I know many here will see all of this as superstitious and just a wee bit crazy, but to believers this is a fact of life.
Originally Posted By dshyates I really look at this as one last knock on your door to offer their special brand of salvation. Yeah it's as obnoxious in the afterlife as it is in this life. But whatcha gonna do. It's the Mormons.
Originally Posted By mele <<You'll never hear that from someone like Josh, but there are a lot of Mormons out there like this.>> Yes, thankfully! I know Prop 8 was a huge turning point, both inside, and outside of the church. I know it's what changed my opinion. I struggle with my feelings towards them and, honestly. As I have said before, I their religion seems to have greater number of things that I do not like than nearly all mainstream religions. That's hard to get over. I would never vote against their rights to live as they want and that's just about all I can do right now. (Of course, if I were to be in any sort of social or work situation with them, I would never rail against them or treat them badly. Except my SIL who I make a habit of NEVER being around for other reasons. LOL)
Originally Posted By mele <<I don't want anyone playing blow up kiddie pool baptisms and Necco wafer communion with my soul.>> This is such a great comment.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't want anyone playing blow up kiddie pool baptisms and Necco wafer communion with my soul.<< Surely your faith doesn't accept that a bunch of Mormons have any say in the matter? Still not seeing the problem.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It's hard to tell people with different sensibilities NOT to be offended by something. I could call a black person the n-word, and then say "hey, it's just a word. You guys use it all the time. Lighten up." Just in general: if someone asks you not to do something, and you do it anyway, that's not respecting your wishes. Jewish organizations have made it clear for years that they really don't want these posthumous baptisms taking place; yet they happen anyway. If my grandfather were alive, he'd make it clear to any Mormon listening that his Baptism was indeed "good enough," thank you very much, and it would be disrespectful to go against his wishes. In the cosmic scheme of thing, it probably does mean nothing. But respecting someone's wishes still counts for something with me.
Originally Posted By PetesDraggin Being a former Mormon, I guess I understand the mindset that goes into the proxy baptisms. As the name implies, they are merely proxy baptisms. Meaning, since the person is dead and cannot be baptized, they are getting baptized for that person. In a sense, it's like free samples at Costco; they're offered but you don't have to take them. I know this is a simplistic explanation, but I really don't think that their intention is to disrespect anyone. I find it hard to support the LDS church on anything, but on this subject I just don't understand all the anger towards the Mormons.
Originally Posted By Sara Tonin No..this is like going to Costco and having the people handing out samples knock me to the ground and shove cheesecake down my throat while I'm kicking and screaming that I already had dessert and I'm allergic to dairy! And I think the n-word explanation says it perfectly...and continually telling people you dont know why they should be offended is even more offensive.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I know this is a simplistic explanation, but I really don't think that their intention is to disrespect anyone. I find it hard to support the LDS church on anything, but on this subject I just don't understand all the anger towards the Mormons.> For me it's not anger so much as quizzical exasperation. If people are constantly telling you (and people are) that something is offensive, I think you should take them at their word and stop doing it. To do otherwise is disrespectful and is essentially dismissing the other person's position and saying "ah, you silly Catholic (or Jew or Presbyterian, or whatever); we know better than you." I don't see how you can say it's not "intentionally" disrespectful, when they know dang well that people take it that way. I may consider a Koran just paper and ink. But I sure wouldn't go into a Muslim home and pour chocolate sauce on one, when I know very well that the people who own that Koran consider it sacred. I couldn't very well say "hey, no disrespect intended. Hell, I'll buy you another one. No biggie." Well, it may not be a biggie to me, but I have to understand that I AM NOT THE ARBITER OF ALL THINGS. Something many religions might want to keep in mind.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>No..this is like going to Costco and having the people handing out samples knock me to the ground and shove cheesecake down my throat while I'm kicking and screaming that I already had dessert and I'm allergic to dairy!<< Actually it's more like having the people at Costco PRETEND to give you a sample of cheesecake when you're not there. COSTCO SAMPLES ARE NOT ON TRIAL HERE!
