Originally Posted By DAR <<What are you talking about, Dar? I thought you believed in Jesus. Didn't he give doubting Thomas permission to poke around his holes or something? Well, technically you're right though. I suppose at that time Jesus would be better classified as un-dead. Creepy.>> Sorry for the late response it's hard to keep up with these Mormon threads. No I meant in a joking way that the it's impossible for the dead to ask for anything.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I'll go back to my question- why not just leave the dead alone?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I'm letting you all know right now that I don't want anyone baptising me after death. I don't want anyone making me an honorary member of the Elks Lodge, or giving me a posthumous subscription to Popular Mechanics, no drafting my corpse into any sort of after-the-fact club, society, league, fraternity ... nothin'. I mean it. If anyone does it, I swear I will come back and haunt them mercilessly. And I don't mean in a fun-loving grim grinning ghosts kind of way. I'd make it a heart-stopping scare-a-thon. I'd be the freaking Billy Mays of the post-mortum crowd -- loud and in your face at any given moment. You have been warned.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So, there's a new software program to keep track of the baptisms you're *not* doing. Handy.> It keeps track of everything done and not done. What are you trying to say?
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "I'll go back to my question- why not just leave the dead alone?" Because they are the easiest ones to proselytize. They don't slam doors in faces, try to disprove the teachings of the church and post information on message boards.
Originally Posted By utahjosh "I'll go back to my question- why not just leave the dead alone?" Do you really want to know? Because our doctrine says, like Jesus taught: Everyone must be baptized if they want to return and live with God. Causes a real problem for the millions who never had the chance to be baptized their entire life. So, Jesus instructed members of His church in the latter-days to be baptized for and in behalf of those who didn't get the chance. If those people want to accept that baptism, they are free to. They are also free to ignore it. *Another point, we believe baptisms must be performed by someone with the authority and priesthood of God, and since Jesus ordained his apostles there wasn't anyone around to do that..until Joseph Smith was giving the authority by John the Baptist himself. **Yet another point, Baptism for the Dead was referred to in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Because our doctrine says, like Jesus taught: Everyone must be baptized if they want to return and live with God. Causes a real problem for the millions who never had the chance to be baptized their entire life. So, Jesus instructed members of His church in the latter-days to be baptized for and in behalf of those who didn't get the chance. If those people want to accept that baptism, they are free to. They are also free to ignore it." And how rock-headed arrogant of your cult to presume they want to be baptized posthumously. They had their entire lives to do so and passed. That's not good enough for you? What nerve.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <And how rock-headed arrogant of your cult to presume they want to be baptized posthumously. They had their entire lives to do so and passed. That's not good enough for you? What nerve.> SPP, you are trying my patience, but I'm still cool-headed, calm, and at peace. But it seems that you are the one who is mean-spririted, spiteful, and arrogant to want to deny millions of people entrance to the kingdom of God. Wait, you might not believe in Jesus Christ, or agree with his statement that baptism is necessary, so let me rephrase then.. How mean-spririted, spiteful, and arrogant of YOU to not even allow the millions to even decide for themselves if they want the baptism or not.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <They had their entire lives to do so and passed.> Sorry, that doesn't fly. Millions never had the chance to pass. Would you deny them that right?
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<How mean-spririted, spiteful, and arrogant of YOU to not even allow the millions to even decide for themselves if they want the baptism or not.>> Those who truely want to be baptised will find a way to have that happen - I find it very disrespectful for one church to say that only their baptism is the way into Heaven. I do understand many churches have the view -- (my own son nearly died at 14 mos old and my FIL had the nerve to comment that it was good he didn't since he wasn't baptised)... But like many I believe my relationship with God is mine - I don't feel the necessity to push my relationship with God on anyone else. I find it obscene that the Mormon Church feels it has the right to crap all over my faith and try and test my faith once I have passed.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "How mean-spririted, spiteful, and arrogant of YOU to not even allow the millions to even decide for themselves if they want the baptism or not." josh, they're dead. They're deciding how? Moreover: "Sorry, that doesn't fly. Millions never had the chance to pass. Would you deny them that right?" To pass on Mormonism? Every time. But josh, they were alive. They died because they were jewish. I know you're a brainwashed fool so this means nothing to you, but if your relatives were gassed simply because they were Mormon I doubt you'd be thrilled if the Jews came along to gather them up.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I find it obscene that the Mormon Church feels it has the right to crap all over my faith and try and test my faith once I have passed." Exactly.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Sorry, that doesn't fly. Millions never had the chance to pass. Would you deny them that right?<< I think it's remarkable we're even having this conversation. What kind of pathetic, weak God can't work something else out? We've already seen that the God of Mormonism changes his mind with impunity. We're really to believe that God can't just say "Well, I know your hearts and your minds and I know you would have chosen to be baptized, and that's what matters to me." We're really to believe that God is such a jerk that he'll damn some poor Chinese kid who died at age 8 in the 4th century? Instead of just being merciful and saying it's all ok, God wants Mormons to create rolls of literally billions of names of everyone who's lived on earth? It's such a childish, naive approach to theology and deity. It's the literalism that's so odd. Baptism is supposed to be symbolic. When it becomes compulsory that symbolism loses its power.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>>Sometimes the Lord changes policies and practices.<< What? You have got to be kidding me.*** Yes, K2M, this guy is amazing isn't he? What was the reason for mormon prejudice against blacks? It was god's fault. HE was the jerk, but later came around. If that's not blasphemous, I don't know what the word means.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<What purpose does Christianity as we know it today serve>>> Do you mean in a personal sense or a community based sense. I think in a personal sense it is a comfort that your God is there watching over you - and while you may go through hardships and tragedy it's never more than what He thinks you can handle. And while some think that it may be a test of Faith at times - it is only to help you find you innerstrength. For me knowing that when my Grandmother died knowing she would be in heaven gave me great comfort - then this year when my Grandfather passed knowing they were again together gave me and my family the same comfort. In a Community sense I think for some it's the family they truely need. For some it may be the only sense of family they have. For others it could be a place they have that helps them feel better about the life they are living. And for some it's just something they have always done and will always do. There is really no wrong reason for someone to believe in the God they do - And just because I believe in God I don't think My God is the only God to believe in.. I think faith is a very personal thing and as long as you believe in something greater you are blessed.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<They had their entire lives to do so and passed.> Sorry, that doesn't fly. Millions never had the chance to pass. Would you deny them that right?*** I'll pass. Now, Josh, who do I contact to ensure that you guys never bring up my name in one of your rituals? Do we have that right? What is the telephone number of a contact person for me (and my family, they all pass too and I'll provide names AND signed affidavits if necessary). So, what's my next step here?
