Originally Posted By Mr X ***By why do equal rights not extend to kids? What about someone with disabilities who wore incontintence pads or had loud outbursts due to their condition. Or elderly folks with a hearing impairment, some senility and again toileting issues.*** To be brutally honest, that's not acceptable either..and again I'm strictly talking about 5 star type places here, not EVERYWHERE of course nor even "most places". Of course, no one can force such an issue, but I believe a measure of discretion is in order. What ever happened to decorum, anyway? And on that note, is there really a problem with cell phones in fancy restaurants? If so, that's a shame (and it really makes me wonder why all that sort of thing works out fine in Japan but no place else). In Japan, people put their phones on manner mode in restaurants, on trains, and in other public environments. They generally do not take calls in such situations, but on the occasion that they do they step outside or otherwise act discreetly enough that it's not disruptive to those around them. Is that not true in America or Europe?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Sadly it is not true in Europe about the cell phone thing. But back on point, I don't buy it. IF someone is disabled and loves a particular restaurant, why should they be denied the experience? What next, no fat or ugly or ginger haired people? The reality is, you have spoken out about discrimintation on other topics, and yet this is discrimination too. Someone may not be comfortable with 2 guys kissing at said five star and that is considered wrong. Another wants to take a family member - elder/disabled/child and many think that is wrong, and yet this is seen as ok? Am I missing something? Both are forms of discrimination. Yet, one is seen as bad and the other good?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***IF someone is disabled and loves a particular restaurant, why should they be denied the experience?*** There's a difference between disabled and disruptive. Anyway, I'm just mentioning my opinion on infants in 5-star restaurants, that's all. Anyone else is free to disagree with me.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Another wants to take a family member - elder/disabled/child and many think that is wrong, and yet this is seen as ok?*** As I said, there's nothing anyone can really DO about it, but I would think the party in question could use some discretion. No, it's really not okay if a family brings in a severely dysfunctional person who (through no fault of their own of course) tends to scream throughout the meal and make it impossible for anyone else in an otherwise posh and quiet environment to converse, enjoy their meal, or hear the piano music. Sorry, that's my viewpoint on it.
Originally Posted By Mr X Also, how would THAT be any more appropriate than bringing a person who was unable to keep quiet for whatever reason to a symphony orchestra concert? Would that be fine with you too, Dave?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well it is indeed a fine line, but again this is the difficulty of disability. It is always an interesting debate as to when something is acceptable and something is not. I have missed a number of years of theatrical experiences through becoming a parent, because I felt it inappropriate to take the children. Same with restaurants (hence the fact that we did not dine at the Napa Rose this time last year - the menu and experience of Steakhouse 55 was more appropriate for us). But this is an interesting debate on what is and is not acceptable. I agree, we do not want to see people disrupt meals, or movies, or concerts etc. But if you had someone disabled who's greatest joy is a live performance, but they insist on dancing or shouting the notes along, does this mean we deny them such a pleasure? It is a really hard call.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But this is an interesting debate on what is and is not acceptable.*** Indeed. ***But if you had someone disabled who's greatest joy is a live performance, but they insist on dancing or shouting the notes along, does this mean we deny them such a pleasure? It is a really hard call.*** Of course it is a tough call (in fact, this is a much touchier area than whether young kids should be taken to fancy restaurants, I think). I believe there are options. Perhaps a music scene like a big band or jazz concert which was amplified so an overly enthusiastic listener wouldn't disrupt the music quite so much. Or perhaps an outdoor concert. Something like that. Certainly a pop concert or other music event where plenty of people are shouting and moving would be an option. Classical (like fine dining) is a difficult one though. I can't imagine it being appropriate to take someone who was unable to listen quietly (at least for the MOST part!). It would literally ruin the entire concert! Anyway, with restaurants too, there are certainly plenty of options. More family oriented places where the noise level is a bit higher to begin with for example. Yes it is an interesting if very sensitive subject. It's a lot easier to talk about the jackass on the cell phone I think. In a place like Napa Rose, I would have no compunction against asking the person myself to step outside if the staff was unable/unwilling to handle it...if it's really such a problem perhaps restaurants may start requiring "phone check in" or something, but there's always those who will push the limits of decorum and that's sad.
Originally Posted By Jenn31 Well, thank goodness none of the restaurants in question are 5 star dining establishments then. (save for napa rose) All restaurants are on Disney property. If you were looking to take your wife of girlfriend to a nice meal, why would you go to a restaurant on Disney property where the theme of the day is FAMILIES. Even napa rose is very laxed in re to dress code, lots of people in shorts and tees. I'm from Napa. Some of Zagats top restaurants are right here in the valley. I would never take my son to the french laundry for example which is a 5 star restaurant and dresscode is strictly inforced. It's not a "family" place. Disney is. Dave is 100% right. It's important to expose your children to different restarants. Otherwise how are they supposed to learn. When he's older I will be taking him to restaurants here in napa and with his prior exposure to fine dining he'll know what's appropriate behavior. Children learn by watching. And disney property or not, if I had a disabled child/relative/etc who was incontinent and screamed during shows (and that was their greatest joy) I would absoloutly take them! Life is very short, so short in fact, I wouldn't even worry about offending your delicate sensibilities.
Originally Posted By cstephens davewasbaloo wrote: > By why do equal rights not extend to kids? What about someone with disabilities who wore incontintence pads or had loud outbursts due to their condition. Well, one obvious thing I can think of is the difference between a child and an adult. The adult makes the decision to go. The child really doesn't have a say. Mr X wrote: > And on that note, is there really a problem with cell phones in fancy restaurants? It's not just fancy restaurants. I was at a place for lunch a couple weeks ago - not fancy but kind of mid-level. It was fairly quiet in the restaurant, except for ambient conversation. One man who was dining alone got on the phone and was talking about twice the level of everyone else talking in the restaurant and he was overpowering everything else in the restaurant. After he'd been on the phone for a while, I just put my fork down and turned and stared at him. Unfortunately, he never noticed me doing so, because if he'd asked about it, I would have told him that he obviously thought his conversation was so important that we should all listen to it, so I didn't want to be rude by ignoring him. And it wasn't a conversation he had to have at that moment. I've been in restaurants when people have taken a call, and it's usually quick and quiet. Any more than that and they go outside. But then I've had people in movie theatres, WHILE THE FILM IS SHOWING, answer their phone and have a conversation about nothing that's an emergency. davewasbaloo wrote: > But if you had someone disabled who's greatest joy is a live performance, but they insist on dancing or shouting the notes along, does this mean we deny them such a pleasure? If their pleasure means that it completely destroys someone else's experience, then yeah, sorry, I do think so. Or, you find alternate times to go if a matinee might be inclined to be less busy or have a louder audience. I was seeing the Broadway musical "Tarzan" in New York and there was someone there who was disabled somehow who before the show started was making a lot of noise and talking very loudly. The person accompanying them finally took them outside, and I don't believe they came back. We were within the first 10 rows of the seating. If the person had been allowed to stay, it would have been completely disruptive to not just all the surrounding audience but the performers as well. I'm sorry that the person wasn't able to have the experience, but I also can't see that everyone in the surrounding 10 rows has to have their experience disrupted so that one person can yell and shout continuously during a show. On the other hand, I've been to an instrumental concert at the Hollywood Bowl where something similar happened, but the person settled down fairly soon, and we were far enough away that the musicians wouldn't have been able to hear it. There's also a difference between what one *can* do and what one *should* do, in thinking about other people as well. If I have a raging cold and I'm highly infectious, I *can* still go to Napa Rose, but out of courtesy, I wouldn't, because I figure the staff and other diners wouldn't appreciate me constantly blowing my nose and sneezing and very likely passing my very bad cold onto them. /cs
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Been steering clear of the discussion because I see and agree with most of what Mr. X AND Dave are both saying ... it's a difficult call. I still err on the side of when your enjoyment of something interferes with most everyone else's, that something is wrong on your side. And while bringing disabilities into the conversation opens up a whole other can of worms, if we stick with children (and infants and toddlers) most people realize there are places you take them and places you don't. I don't mind someone sitting at Napa Rose with a well-behaved 5-year-old who is learning about dining in fine locales at a young age. But a screaming baby or toddler? Or a 5-year-old who won't listen to mommy and daddy and will run around the place? Sorry, but I work hard for my money. Napa Rose is a luxury. It isn't the Olive Garden. I wouldn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a fine meal and have it ruined by someone's boorish behavior ... and that means a drunk adult or one dressed like a slob (happens much more often at WDW fine dining locales than NR) or someone who thinks it's fine to bring a child to a location they just aren't ready for. When I was 18 months old, my folks didn't take me anywhere. They either dined in or had my grandparents watch me. I started dining out when I was about 2 1/2 and if there was the slightest hint I was going to be disruptive, I was removed before that could happen. And 4 and 5 star dining locales were out of the question for me until I was older. Somewhere along the line it became OK for boorish, selfish behavior for people in the USA ... this me-me-me deal. When you or your family's right to do something starts infringing on others, that's when I'd say the line has been crossed. As to the disability question ... well, I had someone in my family who was greatly disabled in her later years and insisted on going to certain places and, despite the joy it brought her, I don't feel in hindsight it was fair to others. I don't think being disabled should allow one to be selfish, to me that's not treating them like everyone else and isn't that what we are taught is 'the right thing?'
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Just wanted to add I totally agree with everything cstephens posted in 29.
Originally Posted By Jenn31 Once again, Fine dining does not equate restaurants on disney property. If you're talking about restaurants outside the Disney are that's one thing. People with families, especially children, infants, toddlers and grandma all eat at these places because they're on vacation. If you want four or five star quiet dining Disney eateries are not the place to do it if children make you uncomfortable. Any restaurant I go to on the disney property I expect to see children. If you want a top notch dining experience come to the Napa Valley.
Originally Posted By cstephens Jenn31 wrote: > Once again, Fine dining does not equate restaurants on disney property. Actually, that's not true. That may be your opinion, which is fine, but a Disney property restaurant does not automatically mean it's not fine dining. Napa Rose has received many awards and has one of the best wine lists in Orange County. Oh, and it happens to be located on Disney property. For many restaurants, yes, I would expect to see kids, although I don't think kids should be running around screaming like wild banshees even at someplace like Storytellers. However, Napa Rose is by no means a "family restaurant", not in decor, not in menu offerings and definitely not in price. I remember some people complaining bitterly when a WDW restaurant (Rose and Crown? Can't remember which.) instituted a rule that only kids 10 and over (or maybe 9 and over) were allowed to dine. Because it doesn't matter that WDW has a billion other restaurants, but if one extremely high-end place wanted to give its patrons a break from screaming kids, you can't be having that, and the "but it's on Disney property" excuse was used. Bullpucky. Oh, and for the record, there are other fine dining places that don't require going to Napa Valley. /cs
Originally Posted By Jenn31 Like I said. If you're looking for a nice restaurant without children why on earth would you look at disney? As for us, A friend and I (and son) will be dining at steakhouse 55, Ralph Brennans, and someone had mentioned Catal. I looked at the menu and it looks pretty good. I also checked the reviews and almost everyone had wonderful things to say. I think one day before we head back for a nap at lunch we'll try Tortilla Joes. I really love a good Pozole Soup. Anyone been to Tortilla Joes?
Originally Posted By cstephens Jenn31 wrote: > If you're looking for a nice restaurant without children why on earth would you look at disney? I'm sorry you don't understand, but then, you've never been to Napa Rose, so I guess I can see why you don't get it. /cs
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 The restaurant you are referring to is Victoria and Albert's ... it is one of the most highly regarded restaurants in the state of Florida. It gets five diamonds by AAA. Incredible gourmet quality meal and service. A typical dinner there will last three hours ... they finally did the smart thing and made it 10 and up. Napa Rose isn't quite in that caliber, but in terms of quality it is close. It is widely thought of as one of the best resturants in the OC, if not the best and that is saying something. The idea that Disney=children just is false. I don't have a problem with well-behaved kids at Napa, and I've never been there when I've had a bad experience with kids. But most people there, in my visits, have been adults sans kids. Every single other location at DL pratcically bends over backwards for kids (even nice places like Catal, Steakhouse 55 and Brennan's), so I can't feel sorry if there's one place designed for adults first and foremost.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie In the end, I feel that the rule should be in every situation, to attempt to provide the least disruption to the average fellow dining guest. Some people will tolerate more and some will tolerate less, but you can definetely tell when there is a disruption in a restaurant, movie or concert. A person who is screaming, talking loudly or is otherwise disruptive to multiple other people should not be at a venue. This goes for children and adults alike.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think one day before we head back for a nap at lunch we'll try Tortilla Joes. I really love a good Pozole Soup. Anyone been to Tortilla Joes?>> Just once ... but the food was very, very good and the prices were reasonable. Been meaning to return.
Originally Posted By cstephens Spirit of 74 wrote: > The restaurant you are referring to is Victoria and Albert's ... Thanks. I knew it was something that reminded me of England. /cs
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^You're welcome. The Rose and Crown is the pub in the UK at EPCOT. Decent pub food and very welcoming of kids! The big news there is they recently removed peas from the fish and chip entree to save money.
