Originally Posted By TomSawyer That's cool, Dlmusic. I can understand where you're coming from, but it worked for me.
Originally Posted By rasvar I think the problems goes back to what, I consider to be, is a weak story to begin with. A flashback sequence would have been disruptive to the flow. The movie depended on the flow to maintain itself. I felt that the sharks were a lot more forced then the beginning sequence. I still don't see the point of that sequence except to have a shark in the movie. All and all, it was an enjoyable movie. However, if we really wanted to, it could be picked to shreds in a lot of ways. The appeared to be shooting for a action/comedy IMHO. Not just a comedy. I was happy with what I got. It will make an absolute mint for Pixar and Disney this year. I think "Brother Bear" will be the better film storywise; but will probably only do half of the box of Nemo if it is lucky. Just a different kind of story.
Originally Posted By terwyn I really don't understand why it was necessary to "kill" off Nemo's mom, when Dory was cast as a female and Marlin and she acted like a couple anyway. If Disney was trying for a more contemporaty feel to Nemo, why couldn't Nemo's parent's have had only one fishling, instead of the usual 1,000s like the other couples in the clownfish community. Recall the mock sympathy of the female elephants toward Mrs. Jumbo (what ever happened to Mr. Jumbo BTW?) in Dumbo. By having only one child, both parents would be overprotective without having to kill off one parent. As was mentioned, Nemo was going for the broadest comedy, adding a tramatic storyline only beats up the audience in the beginning of the film. Having two overprotective parents would add interest to the parents, in supposedly family friendly Disney films. Killing off a parent just tends to re-inforce the notion that only one parent is all that kids need and more than one parent just complicates things unnecessarily.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The opening scene was absolutely vital to establishing that the ocean is a dangerous place. And this ever-present danger is the driving force that leads to Nemo challenging his father. The whole idea of learning to let kids take chances in spite of these dangers is at the core of this excellent movie. Death, the threat of death, triumphing over death, is in just about every major work of fiction from Disney to Shakespeare. More than one parent makes things complicated? Watch those films again, and I think you'll see the message of the Disney films is always the opposite. Having a missing parent never makes things easier on the characters -- it is something they have to overcome. It forces them to accept responsibilities like saving pridelands, battle a forest fire, triumphing in spite of being ridiculed or discounted for being different. The missing parent is an additional weight they have to bear in addition to big ears, false imprisonment, peer pressure, scorn and whatever else.
Originally Posted By basil fan IMHO, if we weren't aware of Marlin's traumatic past before the fish school scene, we would've thought he was a really bad parent. Maybe a flashback could've worked, but they make a film seem cheesy a lot of the time. I have a lot of problems with Finding Nemo, but the death of the mom & fry is not one of them. The Tarzan Equation <a href="http://www15.brinkster.com/wtstsgalor/tarzan.html" target="_blank">http://www15.brinkster.com/wts tsgalor/tarzan.html</a>
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy I agree with the majority that Coral's death scene worked and was needed. And yeah, a flashback wouldn't have worked well with the flow. The whole film was constantly moving on, not looking back. Besides, it gave the clincher for his name, which just added more depth to Marlin's concern and love.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy <A June 9th Nashua Telegraph column talks about the parentless pattern found in Disney films.> Okay, her comments about Gepetto alone lose all respect for her as far as I'm concerned. And yeah, if she's gonna complain, she needs to get her facts straight. *rolls eyes*
Originally Posted By terwyn "The opening scene was absolutely vital to establishing that the ocean is a dangerous place. And this ever-present danger is the driving force that leads to Nemo challenging his father." I would more readily accept that analysis if Nemo wasn't 80% broad comedy and Disney kept using the same theme since 1938. I maintain that killing off one or both parents is just as much a plot device as the original Star Trek series killing off the "red shirt" security man in almost every episode. Yeah, it does ram home the dangerousness of these alien class M planets, but just the same it shows the lack of originality in the writing. Even Shakespear didn't always use gender bending themes in his plays (despite the very good reason that by law all female characters had to be played by men). Supposedly, he wrote everything that's attributed to him, so what's Disney's excuse for using the orphan schtick all these years? Consider this, if you weren't an American and all you saw of American culture were Disney FA films, wouldn't you think that American children are walking basket cases because of the fact that they routinely loose one or both parents? It might appear that the average life expectancy of American adults is pretty low due to the violent deaths they seem to experience, leaving their children to fend for themselves until they too meet their own untimely and violent death (off camera, of course). The reality is that more kids grow-up in homes split by divorce or where the parents don't live together. Why not use these equally tramatic situations, instead of "sugar-coated" tragedies? The "sad" truth of American families that that still a majority of kids have both of their parents to raise them, despite what Disney seems to think.
Originally Posted By rasvar terwyn: Assuming the initial sequence is not included, how do you explain Marlin's almost irrational fear? The name Nemo also loses some of the extra significance. How do you even set up the plot? None of what you are suggesting will allow the story to develop or make any sense. Plus, if you are thinking this is a movie just for children, you are mistaken. The best Disney films also allow the adults to be involved and interested in the movie. That is one of the big differences between a Disney movie and something like the Rugrats or Pokemon. If you are expecting an absolutely normal everyday family, or even your normal divorced family, it really doesn't work in Hollywood. It wouldn't work for this story. Without the opening, this story has no logical starting point or reason for it happening. Marlin's fear makes no sense without a reference point. How would you establish Marlin's irrational fear?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer It started long, long before Disney, terwyn. This cliche you are attributing to them is just one of the common themes in western literature. Even children's literature. It speaks to a very fundamental fear that children (and parents) have, and it can help to teach valuable lessons about different aspects of life. In every case I can think of, the death or absence of one of the parents in a Disney animated feature is essential to the development and growth of the central character in the story.
Originally Posted By CuriosWolfSo "True, just look at the very old original fairytales BEFORE Disney reworked them for his cartoons & movies..." "A lot of them involved children who has lost a parent or both and often is forced to live with a unsympathetic relative or family. (Cinderella, a perfect example)" "And also the child is always in danger of being killed by wicked people (Snow White [the original Snow White was a lot younger than the Disney one]), or risk getting eaten by big hungry animals and scary monsters (Little Red Riding Hood, Peter and the Wolf [This is where we Wolves got that stupid stereotype!]) "But the child always get out of trouble, wiser and more mature though" ("...however, often the child does dies...'Babies in the Woods' has two kids being hopelessly lost and eventually dies of starvation. The original Little Red was eaten by the Wolf and there the story ends! [I'm really ashamed of that wolf's behavior.]" "But it was supposed to be a warning to kids to not get lost and don't talk to strangers [and bad wolves] at the time people were living in the wild woods like Peter and Red did)" "Overall, don't blame Disney (& PIXAR) for the parentless pattern in their movies...they are just following the old classic storybook traditions."
Originally Posted By terwyn "Assuming the initial sequence is not included, how do you explain Marlin's almost irrational fear?" This past weekend, I saw "Jaws" and I still laugh at that scene where Roy Schider(?) as Chief Brody dismisses his wife's fear that their son was in danger in a boat in the sheltered cove. The chief sits down into his easy chair with a book on sharks and flips to a page showing a drawing of a shark attacking a whaling boat. He bolts out of his chair and yells to his son to listen to his mother and stay away from the water. She how effective and humorous a parent's fears can be protrayed without killing off a mom or a dad? Imagination is a wonderful tool, more people should try it. Go back to my idea a few posts back where I suggested that Nemo be a "fluke" only child and BOTH parents go nuts trying to protect him. That scenero gives ample motivation to both parents justifiable fears for Nemo's safety. Add a scene similar to the above "Jaws" scene where by a multitude of scary preditors loom ready to snatch 'lil Nemo and you get something akin to the sheer terror that Snow White faced as she ran from the Woodsman into the dark and scary forest. "If you are expecting an absolutely normal everyday family, or even your normal divorced family, it really doesn't work in Hollywood. It wouldn't work for this story." I never said there should be "an absolutely normal everyday family, or even your normal divorced family". However, I don't think there should be a hackneyed, made-for-TV plot either. Try something unique, show an intact mom and dad that share their concern for the disapperance of their child. Again, by casting Dory as a female character, she is acting as a surrogate wife to Marlin. Coral could be an emotional anchor to the excessive fears and phobias of Marlin. I found having Marlin and Dory too grating, since they were essentially the same loopy character. "This cliche you are attributing to them is just one of the common themes in western literature. Even children's literature. It speaks to a very fundamental fear that children (and parents) have, and it can help to teach valuable lessons about different aspects of life." That and stories of vulerable, ninny princesses that pine away for their prince to come and rescue them, so they could live happily everafter. So, Tom, we Disney fans are doomed to see essentially the same type of film year after year, just like in "Groundhog Day"? Disney is trying mightly to kick the old princess habit, why not the kick the "killing off one or more of a kid's parents" habit too. Since the late '70's and the advent of the summertime blockbuster, special effects movie the most glaring problem is that the budget for writing and story development have taken a backseat to effects. By staging bigger explosions, icky creatures, flying sequences or CGI characters, writing has been cut back more and more so that every film has essential similar plots with different effects. Like paying $9.25 to see "Starsky & Hutch" meets the Harlem Globetrotters re-runs.
Originally Posted By terwyn "She how effective and humorous " That should read: See how effective and humorous "
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>So, Tom, we Disney fans are doomed to see essentially the same type of film year after year, just like in "Groundhog Day"?<< I'm not entirely sure how you can say "Lilo & Stitch", "The Jungle Book" and "Hunchback of Notre Dame" are essentially the same film, unless it's hyperbole.
Originally Posted By LadyKluck No offense to anyone, but you could have put something in the title of the topic or warned us that you were going to tell spoilers from Finding Nemo for those of us that haven't seen it yet. Thank You!!!!
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 OK, I just got done reading a book "A Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell. It shows the Hero's Journey that is throughout mythology and Disney films follow that quite closely. Heroes always suffer a devestating loss and recover and must seperate from the past. If anyone wants to complain about Disney following same plot device, Star Wars used it, Greek and Roman mythologies use it. So don't lump Disney into 1 bunch saying they are only doing it because of lazy writing.
Originally Posted By JeffG >> "No offense to anyone, but you could have put something in the title of the topic or warned us that you were going to tell spoilers from Finding Nemo for those of us that haven't seen it yet." << Valid request and it probably would have been a good idea for the opening message to give a slight spoiler warning, but in this case the incident being discussed happens prior to the opening titles of the film and has been pretty widely discussed in reviews. -Jeff
Originally Posted By basil fan >Go back to my idea a few posts back where I suggested that Nemo be a "fluke" only child and BOTH parents go nuts trying to protect him. That scenero gives ample motivation to both parents justifiable fears for Nemo's safety. I have to disagree with this idea. You'd have 2 characters in the movie who essentially do the same things, serve the same purpose, deliver interchangeable lines. Now you might possibly do it with 1 parent who is over protective & one who is laid back & easy-going. But you'd have to really rethink the dynamic between both parents & Dory to make sure all 3 could interact in an interesting way. Or you might be able to eliminate Dory altogether & give her personality to Nemo's mother. It might work. Sherlock Holmes <a href="http://www15.brinkster.com/wtstsgalor/etc/less.html" target="_blank">http://www15.brinkster.com/wts tsgalor/etc/less.html</a>
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy I think it works so well havin' Dory and Marlin strangers to each other, though. It's a unique relationship. As far as havin' both parents concerned for children, Disney did a wonderful job with "101 Dalmatians". They gave Perdita marvelously maternal lines, while they gave Pongo fantastic fatherly lines. I never really thought about it till now, but that really is amazing how well they succeeded with that. Pongo and Perdita were both extremely concerned/worried about the puppies, but from the different angles as "mother" and "father". Good, good, good...
Originally Posted By terwyn "Now you might possibly do it with 1 parent who is over protective & one who is laid back & easy-going. But you'd have to really rethink the dynamic between both parents & Dory to make sure all 3 could interact in an interesting way. Or you might be able to eliminate Dory altogether & give her personality to Nemo's mother. It might work." Thank you "basil fan" for actually reading what I wrote!!! It's not like Disney's FA films are targeted to families in war torn or AIDS inflicted foreign countries, where a huge percentage of parents have died. Even with divorce, most kids still have parents who live together or the kids still see them on a semi-regular basis. Using the "kill off one or both parents" plot line in nearly every FA film get a bit tiring, like if Universal only did pictures on monsters (or Marvel comics characters--wink, wink, nod, nod). "TALL Disney Guy's" point of the positive role models of Perdita and Pongo are excellent. In "101" both parents were strong characters that were focused on finding their pups and compassionate in saving the other pups. What a great model for parenting in the 1960's or 2000's, right? You have to realize that the huge numbers of people seeing aren't focused on the the storyline of Nemo, but on the CGI effects and the humorous bits throughout the film (personally, MY favorite bit was the credits crawl at the end of the movie). Why not thrown a little family values by showing how loving and caring BOTH parents could be? Nobody has yet commented on my "Jaws" example of how two parents could play off each other both dramatically and humorously in a storyline. Just because Hollywood only does one type of plotting, doesn't mean it wrong to try something well thought out and different once in a while. "A force consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds." --Thoreau
