Originally Posted By Mr X ***No one grills you in the confessional, which is anonymous, voluntary and you are separated by a barrier*** Gotta take exception to this one, as only "separated by a barrier" really applies. I have certainly been "grilled" in the confessional before, and know of many others who have as well (including girls who have been brought to hysterics over it). It is supposedly anonymous but in a small parish all a Priest would need to do would be to recognize your undisguised voice. I've been called by name in the confessional too (at the end, specifically "see you in class tomorrow" by a priest who was also a teacher). And as for voluntary, it's certainly no more voluntary than any Mormon rite. Unless by voluntary you mean "you can voluntarily go to hell if you don't comply".
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Wow, Skinner, I'll use you as my moral compass from now on.>> Seriously, that's the best you can come up with? Go ahead, Josh. Tell me how decades of peer reviewed scientific research is wrong on chlorogenic acid and resveratrol. Go ahead and tell me how seniors with dementia and Parkinson's and other neurological disorders around the globe in study after study are not improving their cognitive status with one to two small cups of coffee each day. Tell me how the Mediterranean diet which prominently features moderate amounts of wine does absolutely nothing to prevent cardiovascular disease or Type II diabetes. I've got scientific proof on my side. All you've got is a dead guy from the 1800's who didn't know what he was talking about regarding the verifiable health benefits from drinking coffee and wine. And because your church is so hung up on what that dead guy was telling his followers, versus irrefutable scientific evidence that proves him wrong... they cannot bring themselves to reverse this stupid mandate for church members by simply admitting that Smith didn't have the expertise or technology available at the time to realize that the substances weren't actually harmful, but quite beneficial. But I guess they can't do that, because then the members would start asking other questions about what could also possibly be incorrect in his teachings. Like how masturbation is very very bad for you. Poor, poor LDS. They keep on spreading those terrible lies because it's just too embarrassing to admit they've made a mistake or two.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Besides, I could point to a dozen more studies showing the negative effects of those things.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I'll stick with God.>> God is truth. Science is truth. Therefore, God supports science. Why can't you religious types get this through your heads?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Besides, I could point to a dozen more studies showing the negative effects of those things.>> Feel free. Every single one of those studies is measuring coffee or tea or wine or beer consumption in >>> LARGE QUANTITIES <<< Go ahead and post them, Josh. But none of them will be studies for these substances in small to moderate quantities. You cannot find a peer reviewed academic study not sponsored by LDS on the "negative effects" of coffee and wine because they don't actually exist. Small to moderate quantities of both coffee and wine are good for you. Period. It's been proven time and again in the real world, in hospitals, assisted living facilities, and in nursing homes, around the world. You cannot refute the truth, Josh, no matter how much you want to prove non-Mormons wrong about your precious words from Smith.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'll stick with God. And truth. And science. But God comes first. Science = truth as far as we can best tell by our methods of study. Mormons build universities that use established scientific principles.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>And truth<< It's so true your first five prophets didn't even follow it. Quit while you're behind, Josh. Go have a drinkâJoseph Smith would approve. The Word of Wisdom wasn't enforced or a commandment until the early 20th century.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>God comes first.<< If you find a situation where God disagrees with science, that doesn't mean that science has it wrong. Or that God has it wrong. It means YOU have it wrong.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Hey, I love science. I use it daily. I'm working on a Masters degree right now. However, science is LIMITED. Our knowledge grows every day. You are more deluded than anyone if you think today's science and tech know everything there is to know. Or everything that it says it "knows" is 100% understood.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>You are more deluded than anyone if you think today's science and tech know everything there is to know.<< You are even more deluded than that if you think the same of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Way to change the subject when you don't have an answer, Josh. I'm still waiting for you to refute the basic proven scientific truth that cognitive functioning and cardiovascular health are measurably improved with small to moderate amounts of coffee and wine daily. Go ahead, Josh. Prove the evidence is incorrect. I'll wait.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer C0nc0rdance's wager: "In the whole of human history, there has never been a single case when the supernatural explanation turned out to be the right one."
Originally Posted By ecdc >>You are more deluded than anyone if you think today's science and tech know everything there is to know. Or everything that it says it "knows" is 100% understood.<< One might ask why a God who is revealing information to nineteenth-century Americans on how to be healthy, skipped over the most beneficial advice of all: Boil your drinking water. Instead, he confined himself to the proscriptions already sweeping the nation in the 1830s in a revived temperance movement. Not at all convenient. I'm done (for now) pointing out why Josh is wrong. I just find it amusing that people so casually toss out words like "truth" when it's abundantly clear they don't know what that is.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I would be willing to bet that the total abstinence from alcohol, as prescribed by the Mormon Church, has had incalculable benefits. It has served them well throughout their history. Yes, one glass of wine is healthy, but few people stop at one glass of wine, and a lot more opt for beer, or hard alcohol. As far as coffee, we are a nation of coffee addicts, people are damn near injecting the stuff into their veins. It offers no more benefits than can be achieved through any number of nutritious alternatives. I think the argument on the churches behalf is that very few people would consume these substances in moderation.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "But but but... Science and stuff!!" I nominate josh for King of the Delusionals. He can rule from his throne on the planet Kolob, in between the baptizing dead people and the meetings were they change set in stone policies.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Nah, I have a King. He's doing a great job. I'll gladly worship Him along side my fellow "delusionals."
Originally Posted By TomSawyer In places where religion and science disagree, science can at least show you every step it took to reach its conclusion.
