Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Science is a system for asking questions and seeking answers. Therefore, science only makes sense to those seeking the truth. Those who arrogantly think they have all the truth already will always discount science - that goes for Mormons, Evangelicals, Muslims, etc. The fact that we are endowed by our creator with logic and reason is paradoxical if we are supposed to shut it off in the name of God. The only god I can believe in is a god who believes in me. Otherwise, I see little point in it.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <In places where religion and science disagree, science can at least show you every step it took to reach its conclusion.> Yep. And religion requires Faith, which means you can't see or touch or prove it, generally.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<And religion requires Faith, which means you can't see or touch or prove it, generally>> Josh, faith is nothing more than believing what you want to believe. For example, there are many conflicting faiths out there (which you should know very well). Which one is right? We have reason and logic to figure these things out, but only if we actually want to know the truth. Sounds funny to say but there are pleny of folks perfectly blissful in having answers (whether they are right or wrong, doesn't really matter which) spoon fed to them so that they don't have to think. In other words, those who talk of faith are not interested in the truth -- they simply believe in what they want to and there is no arguing against that. Face it, thinking about life's most important aspects is hard and can be very frightening so for most people having someone doing the thinking for them feels very warm and fuzzy.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Yep. And religion requires Faith, which means you can't see or touch or prove it, generally.<< Which is exactly why you can't use religion as justification for ignoring or discrediting science. Facts are not faith-based and are not subject to faith-based interpretation. You have to work your faith around the facts, not the other way around. Otherwise you are practicing nothing more or less than self-deception. The world is God's creation. How DARE you consciously, deliberately ignore that creation on the basis of some alleged "faith"?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The religion that you are is generally a function of geography rather than destiny. One of the cool things about science is that the earth orbits the sun regardless of whether a pious man believes it or not.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "You have to work your faith around the facts, not the other way around" I'm tempted to say, "can I get an amen!"
Originally Posted By utahjosh God comes first for me. I've yet to find a scientific reason to not believe in Him. Millions of other so-called "deluded" people agree. Scientists. Heart Surgeons. Lawyers. Teachers. You name it. All must be just unwilling to think critically, is that what you think? That your way of looking at the world is the only valid one?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I've yet to find a scientific reason to not believe in Him.<< You're still confusing God with Joseph Smith. God is not in favor of ignorance, but way too many religions are.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Based on overwhelming scientific data, atheism is the truly valid point of view. To find answers to mysteries, and because mankind could not bear to face the cold reality of existence, and non-existence, religion was conceived.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>You're still confusing God with Joseph Smith.<< Right. When did anyone make the argument against God? Heck, I haven't even argued against Joseph Smith. I've only pointed out that Josh tosses around words like "truth" without understanding, or acknowledging, that what he calls unwavering "truth" is only such in 21st century Mormonism. Much of what Josh insists on these boards is truth sure wouldn't be recognized by Joseph Smith as truth.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Based on overwhelming scientific data, atheism is the truly valid point of view.> And based on overwhelming personal experiences, God lives and Man lives on after death. <To find answers to mysteries, and because mankind could not bear to face the cold reality of existence, and non-existence, religion was conceived. > You're free to believe that. I believe God created Man, and because Man is prone to error, is prideful, and lacks faith, he pretends that God doesn't exists, and depends solely on his own wisdom and limited knowledge.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Here is what a current Prophet of Jesus Christ is teaching about TRUTH: https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/print/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng
Originally Posted By utahjosh Today I would like to speak of truth. As I do, I invite you to ponder a few important questions. He says... "Today I would like to speak of truth. As I do, I invite you to ponder a few important questions. The first question is “What is truth?” The second, “Is it really possible to know the truth?” And third, “How should we react to things that contradict truths which we have learned previously?”
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Here is what a current Prophet of Jesus Christ is teaching about TRUTH<< I skimmed it ... it's rather long ... but I don't believe he ever answered that third question.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Truth is that which is measurable and testable and can be objectively observed by anyone. It is possible to know the truth when a million minds can all observe the same phenomena, test and measure it and come away from it with the same broad understanding of it, regardless of their personal faith or philosophical traditions. You react to things that contradict that which you accepted as true by either confirming the new hypothesis through your own experimentation, or by proving the new hypothesis wrong also through experimentation. No scientist says, "Accept this as true and don't challenge what I tell you." They say, "Here's my hypothesis. Here's my work. Do you see any mistakes? Please let me know if you did." That's called peer review. There are philosophical truths, but as those aren't testable or measurable they just fall under the realm of subjective personal opinion.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan "Archaeology is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall." -- Indiana Jones
Originally Posted By mawnck >>There are philosophical truths, but as those aren't testable or measurable they just fall under the realm of subjective personal opinion.<< Often expressed as ... religion. I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and science.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder josh believes in HIS version of the truth. Big difference between that and the real truths.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<The LDS won't accept it now, but the prophet will have a revelation in a decade or two once the rest of society has already fully accepted homosexuals as full and equal members. The LDS will then revise its own history to show that they always accepted homosexuals.>> I'm late to the discussion, but I don't see the LDS changing doctrine is all that foreign from any other Christian religion. For example, Pope Pius IX declared in 1866 that "Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons.... It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given." And this after virtually every modernized Western nation declared slavery as an abhorrent principle antithetical to our rights as humans. I'm intention is not to criticize the Catholic or any other church. Only to argue that the evolution of most Christian faiths often drags far behind the general populace. Nor am I defending the reluctancy of many LDS to accept modern civil convention (after all, the Founding Fathers were wholly against religious institutions dictating civil law). But I truly don't see it as anything beyond the norm.
