Originally Posted By wahooskipper Dabob...that is my point. Because of the way the law is written, contrary to what the bill sponsors say, the police are by and large left with taking the living person's word for it. Yes, the 9/11 operator said they don't need him following the kid. But, Zimmerman is likely claiming something happen after that direction was given and the time he shot the boy. With no other witness the law is pretty clear that the police have to take his word until the police uncover some other evidence. The phone call with the girlfriend is compelling but apparently not enough. In 2005 there were 43 cases of justifiable homicide in Florida. In 2009 there were 105 cases. This isn't a Sanford problem. It is a Florida problem. It is a Florida problem because of bad legislation and if we focus solely on this issue in Sanford I think we are missing the bigger problem which is a disservice to a LOT of other vicitims and their familes. Maybe there will be evidence uncovered that suggests the Sanford PD botched this but in Florida I have seen countless laws passed by this boneheaded legislature that are nightmares for police agencies. In the case of Stand Your Ground those police agencies pleaded for it not to be passed and here we are with them left to fend for themselves and be scrutinized for doing it in a mannger "the legislature didn't intend". You would think the legislature would be a little more cautious with issues that are literally life and death.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Well, there is another problem regarding his arrest. Nobody knows where he is. Or at the very least, nobody is claiming to know where he is. (I suspect his father knows, but isn't telling.)
Originally Posted By wahooskipper All reports I've read say his whereabouts are unknown but he is cooperating with authorities. I suspect the authorities know where he is but are keeping it out of the press. Sounds like the Police Chief just stepped down. Probably inevitable no matter the facts.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Well kids, given the Florida law, don't be surprised if Zimmerman is never arrested. Chalk it up to experience and lobby for the applicable laws to be re-written.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Clarification. He is "temporarily" stepping down. Not sure what that means.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Dabob...that is my point. Because of the way the law is written, contrary to what the bill sponsors say, the police are by and large left with taking the living person's word for it.> And my point is that the people who wrote this thing are saying the Sanford PD didn't properly follow it. The Sanford police are obviously are claiming they did. But I don't buy that their hands were tied. Read it again. The victim would have to have "reasonably believed his life was in danger." How could Zimmerman have reasonably felt that way? The police knew AT THE TIME that a). Zimmerman pursued Martin, not the other way around; b). Martin had no weapon; c). even if Martin had tried to fight him barehanded, Zimmerman was a hell of a lot bigger AND HAD A LOADED WEAPON. And so, EVEN IF they bought his story that Martin jumped him, how could he have reasonably felt his life was in danger, being far larger, and having the loaded gun vs. a pack of skittles? The police are under NO obligation, as I read this law, to buy the idea that such a man was "reasonably" feeling his life was in danger. <Yes, the 9/11 operator said they don't need him following the kid. But, Zimmerman is likely claiming something happen after that direction was given and the time he shot the boy.> He probably is. Yet there's no question that if Zimmerman doesn't pursue the kid, no altercation could have taken place. <With no other witness the law is pretty clear that the police have to take his word until the police uncover some other evidence.> I don't think that's what the law says. The law says the shooter must "reasonably" feel his life was in danger. If the Sanford police looked objectively at a). loaded gun vs. skittles and b). 250 pounds vs. 140 pounds, they DO NOT have to conclude that any fear Zimmerman told them about was reasonable. <The phone call with the girlfriend is compelling but apparently not enough.> There were also the other 911 calls from the neighborhood from people who heard Martin yelling. There's also the little matter of the police trying to "correct" a witness to get her to say it was Zimmerman yelling, after she repeatedly insisted it was Martin. What's THAT about, if not trying to corroborate Zimmerman's story after the fact? The actions of the Sanford PD stink to high heaven.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I don't know if this is the article wahoo was referencing, but everyone here should read it. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/opinion/bellin-stand-your-ground-law/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/...dex.html</a>
Originally Posted By wahooskipper That wasn't the same article Pass but it makes a similar point. I would just reiterate that if this so cut and dry as critics would have us believe, why haven't the Feds arrested Zimmerman? It doesn't matter what the legislators SAY they INTENDED. Legislators screw up the language of bills all the time and have to go about correcting it. These legislators were told by the police...those who would have to enforce it...that it was bad and an additional 60 cases per year of "justified homicide" would seem to support that.
Originally Posted By mele If Zimmerman doesn't pay for this he'd better move...far away. Dude's going to be a major target for a long time.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I would just reiterate that if this so cut and dry as critics would have us believe, why haven't the Feds arrested Zimmerman?> Because, as SPP pointed out earlier, they have to start the investigation from scratch. They may well arrest him at a later date. And that article, though pointing out how badly and broadly Florida's law is written (I think we're all in agreement there), nonetheless contains this: "The law of self-defense is at its core about reasonableness. If a person reasonably perceives a serious threat of harm, and uses reasonable force to meet that threat, the law justifies even deadly force, and it does so even if it turns out that the perceived threat was illusory." Bottom line: the Sanford PD was under NO OBLIGATION to consider Zimmerman's protestations of reasonableness to BE reasonable. Particularly when they knew from the beginning that this guy had the weapon and Martin did not. They exercised horrible judgment the night of the murder. Furthermore, even if they bought his story on the night of the murder, they were under no obligation to CONTINUE to buy it after evidence came out that contradicted the story he told them. Even if they were inept and used horrible judgment the night of the murder, when you find out someone lied to you - doesn't THAT raise a red flag? But at that point, the Sanford PD - it seems to me - was invested in Zimmerman's story and so rather than arrest him when the contradictory evidence came out, they tried to "correct" at least one witness. They went from inept to possibly criminal. This is NOT simply a story of a PD with its "hands tied."
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Is Vegas taking bets on any possible riots after this guy is arrested, tried and acquitted?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper From CBS News: "Complicating matters, Florida state law allows a person the right to stand their ground and use deadly force if they feel threatened. The Justice Department recognized that, stating that "negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws." The federal government can't prosecute Zimmerman for murder or manslaughter, so any prosecution for civil rights violations must prove Zimmerman took Martin's life because of prejudice." I don't think that young boy should have been shot. I think Zimmerman is the definition of a vigiliante. But, I'm saying I think this is a mess that won't easily be resolved and I'm saying the Florida Legislature is more to blame than the Sanford PD.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Exactly, Dabob. The evidence against Sanford PD is overwhelmingly negative. This police department actively engaged in a cover-up, right from the start. They started protecting Zimmerman from the moment officers arrived at the scene, to their refusal to arrest Zimmerman, to drug testing Trayvor's body at the morgue while also refusing to contact anyone in Trayvor's cell phone to find out who he was. Sanford PD knew who Zimmerman was, they had dealt with him at least 46 times regarding neighborhood watch stuff, and they seemingly went out of their way to protect him and ignore his crime. Sanford PD needs to be fully investigated for obstruction of justice and those involved from the top down need to find new careers outside of law enforcement.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Cover up? Sanford PD invited the feds to come in and investigate. <a href="http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story" target="_blank">http://www.orlandosentinel.com...05.story</a> "Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation. "It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it.""
Originally Posted By Dabob2 And what else, exactly, would you expect him to say, knowing they were coming whether he liked it or not?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But, I'm saying I think this is a mess that won't easily be resolved and I'm saying the Florida Legislature is more to blame than the Sanford PD.> And I'm saying the Fla. Legislature passed a stupid law, and the Sanford PD was inept (at best) even WITH that stupid law. They were under no obligation to consider Zimmerman's testimony reasonable, and no obligation not to continue to buy his story, even if they bought it initially, after evidence came out that contradicted it.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Oh Lord. Anyway, the more I read about this the more I believe he will not be charged. He only fired a single shot which suggests restraint. He has both black and white character witnesses on his side. There is evidence consistent with being attacked. Of course, he will ALWAYS be considered a murderer thanks to the media coverage. And the media has done a good job inciting racial divisions for fun and profit.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox A few important points before they get lost in the debate: * Arresting someone is not the same as charging someone with a crime nor prosecuting someone with a crime. Sanford PD was well within their rights to arrest Zimmerman for the shooting. The Chief is lying through his teeth that there wasn't probable cause. There was. * The "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida does not excuse someone from chasing down a person and attacking them simply because they feel 'threatened' by that person. If you have to run after them, chase them down, actively pursue them, then you're not actually being 'threatened' by them in the moment and there is no 'ground' to 'stand' upon to defend. Zimmerman chased this kid down on foot. He didn't have a weapon with which to threaten Zimmerman with, he weighed 110 pounds less than Zimmerman so there was no physical threat to Zimmerman. If Zimmerman felt 'threatened' then it was strictly in his overactive imagination, which the 'Stand Your Ground' law does not defend. Zimmerman should have been arrested at the scene for discharging his gun and killing Trayvor. Period. The 'Stand Your Ground' law does NOT let Sanford PD off the hook for fully investigating what actually happened in the death of this teen.
