Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<We still don't know if Travon charged and or struck Zimm ?>> Donny, Trayvor was a skinny teenager who weighed 110 pounds lighter than Zimmerman. Are you telling me that a grown adult male weighing at least 250 pounds cannot protect himself from a skinny teenager weighing only 140 pounds without the use of deadly force? Besides, you're forgetting the other 911 calls made by residents who heard Trayvor calling out for help and was fully audible in the background of those 911 calls. Everyone who called has stated that it wasn't an adult male calling out for help. It was Trayvor. If Trayvor was 'charging' or 'striking' Zimmerman, why would he need to call out for help? And these calls for help happened shortly before the clearly audible gunshot on those 911 calls. Zimmerman overreached and shot Trayvor when deadly force was not necessary at all. He chased down Trayvor, threatened him enough for Trayvor to shout out for help, then shot him. This was murder.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "So Donny, put up or shut up. You're okay that Martin is dead?" This is a simple yes or no question, Donny.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Heads will roll over this, and they should. It's outrageous that Zimmerman is not behind bars already." Again, blame Florida law.
Originally Posted By Donny If Zimm was walking back to his car and Travon jumped Zimm (which is a possibility) then that would change my mind on the whole situation.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The 911 operator told him NOT to exit his vehicle in the first place. He ignored that directive. The most deadly thing Trayvon Martin was carrying was concealed high fructose corn syrup.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Another aspect of this story that hasn't received enough attention is the culpability of Sanford PD. I watched Rev Al's show yesterday and he interviewed Trayvor's parents and their attorney. Until that time, I had no idea that the Sanford PD kept Trayvor in the morgue without attempting to contact anyone on his cellphone. Trayvor's father had no idea where his son was for about 24 hours until he contacted the PD to report him missing. They made no effort to call any of the numbers in Trayvor's cell phone which was recovered by the Sanford PD officers at the scene of the shooting. That absolutely reeks of cover up. This police department is protecting Zimmerman. That's why they didn't arrest him and took him at his word that he shot Trayvor in 'self-defense' without fully investigating what happened. That's why an officer at the scene kept 'correcting' one of the residents who heard Trayvor shouting for help that she was actually hearing Zimmerman shouting for help. Really? Why would the officer do that? That's witness tampering and definitely illegal. The only reason the officer would keep telling the witness that she heard Zimmerman screaming for help was to validate Zimmerman's story that he shot Trayvor in self-defense. And then to keep the body in the morgue without attempting to contact any of the numbers in Trayvor's cell phone? Seriously? The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Sanford PD has been covering up for Zimmerman from the get-go. It's a corrupt department that needs to be fully cleansed from the top down.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<If Zimm was walking back to his car and Travon jumped Zimm (which is a possibility) then that would change my mind on the whole situation.>> That's what Zimmerman told police that happened. But by applying simple logic, Donny, the story falls apart. Trayvor weighed 110 pounds less than Zimmerman. If Trayvor actually had tried to jump him from behind, Zimmerman could have easily body slammed him to the ground, since he weighs 250 pounds. That obviously didn't happen, because Trayvor was shot behind the townhomes, not on the street where Zimmerman said Trayvor jumped him from behind as he was supposedly walking back to his truck after getting out to read the street sign to see where in his complex he was. Plus, it's a small complex, so I doubt Zimmerman doesn't know it inside out and backwards, given that he's patrolled it regularly for quite some time. OK, so... Zimmerman allegedly fends off Trayvor and Trayvor runs away from him. Zimmerman chased him from the street to behind the townhomes. That's when Trayvor started screaming for help. You can hear his voice on the 911 calls made to police. Trayvor's mother identified the voice as her son's. And it's clearly not a heavy set adult male like Zimmerman who's calling out for help. What, exactly, was Zimmerman's motivation to chase and shoot Trayvor if he actually was jumped on by Trayvor on the street? Trayvor ran away from Zimmerman, whether or not he actually jumped Zimmerman from behind, and Zimmerman pursued him and eventually shot him. This makes no sense. Why chase the kid? He didn't have a weapon. He was no longer a threat to Zimmerman once he ran away. Zimmerman chased Trayvor from the street to behind the townhomes out of revenge. That's not 'self-defense' and 'standing your ground,' Donny. On its face, Zimmerman's story disproves his explanation of 'self-defense' for shooting and killing Trayvor Martin. No one can 'stand their ground' if their pursuing their so-called attacker who's allegedly threatened them.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<The odds of Donny living in that same community are not high. I wouldn't really call Sanford part of Orlando. I'd say Sanford is to Orlando what Riverside is to Los Angeles.>> But Sanford is part of the greater Orlando area, as Riverside is part of the greater Los Angeles area. Donny previously posted that he was living within a reasonable drive to WDW, and Sanford would definitely qualify. The Retreat at Twin Lakes is only 42 miles from the main entrance to MK's parking lot. Definitely a reasonable drive. And for all of his protestations, Donny still hasn't denied that he lives there. Sure, the odds are fairly high that he does. But if he doesn't, why not just state that? Why p*ss and moan about me asking the question? I'm asking because of his post #34: "1.I like guys like George who patrol my apartment,do I care that he is carring a gun (I would if I was doing neighborhood watch) 2.does being neighborhood watch give you the right to approach people ?YESSSS but I hope that person does it in a courtous way." So his neighborhood watch guy carries a gun, like Zimmerman, even though the National Sheriffs' Association, which is the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch, advises against this. Zimmerman doesn't belong to this group, nor has had any formal training from law enforcement about doing neighborhood watch. But Donny still defends the concealed weapon carry and approaching 'suspicious' individuals even though the national association tells its members not to do this. Too convenient for my taste, especially since Donny keeps calling Zimmerman, "Zimm," as if he personally knows him. Sorry, not buying it.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I think the information that Donny shared in post 147 provided by the City Manager of Sanford, needs to be read by everyone. As I've said in other venues, the police officers don't have carte blanche when it comes to arresting people. There must be cause and it must be in conjunction with Florida law.> I saw the City Manager on TV last night, and he made it clear that the statement in that "Q&A" to the effect that "Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony." was not HIS statement. It was Lee (the police chief)'s statement. So Zimmerman claimed self-defense and LEE said it was "supported by physical evidence and testimony." The testimony part was obviously Zimmerman himself (which becomes a circular argument), as NOBODY else has come forward saying they saw it, and the only people who say they heard it contradict Zimmerman. And they won't say what "physical evidence" there was; and with the amount of heat they're taking, they certainly would if there was any. The actions of the Sanford PD stink to high heaven. They treated Martin as a "John Doe" and didn't even attempt to find out who he was until his father called Missing Persons. Note, Einsteins in Sanford: ANYONE WITH A CELL PHONE WILL NOT BE A JOHN DOE FOR LONG WITH EVEN THE MOST CURSORY INVESTIGATION. I mean, geez. They tested Martin, the victim, for drugs and alcohol. Did they test the shooter for drugs or alcohol? No, they did not. Even the rapidly-becoming-infamous Florida "stand your ground" law says the shooter can only shoot "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." How could Zimmerman have reasonably felt Martin could cause him death or great bodily harm, being armed only with a pack of skittles? And yeah, the police would have known that at the time. The SPONSORS of that law in Florida say their law shouldn't apply here: <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-sponsors-florida-stand-ground-law-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164" target="_blank">http://www.nydailynews.com/new....1048164</a> 'The Florida lawmakers who crafted the state's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law said neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman should be arrested for shooting and killing unarmed teen Trayvon Martin. Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley said the law they wrote in 2005, which allows someone who feels threatened to "meet force with force" without backing down first, was being misapplied in the shooting death of the 17-year-old, the Miami Herald reported. "They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid," Peaden, a Republican, told the Herald. "He has no protection under my law." And yeah, maybe this is CYA territory for the folks who pushed this terrible law, but they're not wrong about it being misapplied here. As bad as this law is, the Sanford PD, IMO, stretched its application beyond any logical standard.
Originally Posted By dshyates I really have to wonder why Donny ALWAYS swims upstream in these conversations. Even when siding with a murderer. I honestly believe that Donny just likes to fight. No, Donny is gonna listen to his good buddy "Zimm's" side of the story. Trayvon is dead so his side will NEVER be told and then Donny will make up his mind. And we will keep bangin' our heads against that wall.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Legislators make the laws, police interpret them to enforce them and then, when there is dispute or discrepancy the courts weigh in. I've never said the shooting was justified nor have I said I think the PD acted reasonably. Everyone who is insisting that the Police Chief is to blame I'd just ask you this: Why haven't the State or Feds made an arrest? Because there has to be cause and the investigation is ongoing. We all (by and large) think there is cause, the legislators think there is cause, Al Sharpton thinks there is cause...but none of that matters if the police agencies don't think there is cause. I insist the obstacle here is the law. If any of these agencies overstep their bounds without having their ducks in a row it could be grounds for a mistrial. If everyone wants justice that I suggest everyone take a deep breath and let the process play out. There is a good opinion piece by a Florida lawyer on the CNN home page right now that does a far better job of explaining why law enforcement is in a bind here.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer They just released another picture of Zimmerman. <a href="http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/Dwight_sheriff.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.givememyremote.com/...riff.jpg</a> (No, not really him.)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Why haven't the State or Feds made an arrest? > SPP went over this. When the new entities stepped in, the investigation had to start from scratch. <but none of that matters if the police agencies don't think there is cause.> Well, yes, that's the reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested immediately. Because the Sanford PD simply took his word for it. To my mind, that was an inexcusably shoddy way to treat a death, even with the Florida law as written (as the sponsors of that law have said themselves). And I understand why he hasn't been arrested more recently, as the investigations have to start over with the new entities. What I don't understand is why he wasn't arrested before the other entities came in, but after the evidence came out that clearly contradicted his (Zimmerman's) story. If you have a suspect - hell, the guy who ADMITTED he shot someone - and you (as the police) buy his story initially... but then evidence comes out that contradicts his story... isn't that cause for arrest? Not conviction, mind you, but arrest? I should think so. Now it's too late, as the other entities have stepped in, and if he's ultimately arrested as a result, that will take time. But I think the Sanford PD's actions also need to be investigated here. They were inept at best, and possibly engaged in a cover-up.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But I think the Sanford PD's actions also need to be investigated here. They were inept at best, and possibly engaged in a cover-up.<< Yes, yes and yes. When a 911 operator instructs some yahoo to NOT track and engage a person, and he does it anyway, at that point the person should be arrested. Zimmerman did not listen, because he's a wanna be tough guy with a gun. He violated instructions and took the law into his own hands -- actually, there was no "law" to take into his own hands -- he caused an altercation needlessly, and ended it by murdering an unarmed kid. I hope the delay in his arrest is to make sure that they can prosecute Zimmerman to the absolute fullest extent of the law.
