Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "While the Subs don't have the higest ridership numbers, neither do the Twain or DLRR, so the cost per passenger (which is what they really look at) is very high on all of them." The Disneyland Railroad doesn't have high ridership numbers? That's hard to believe. It can be difficult to find open seats on busy days. I have always seen it very full. Assuming people get on at Main Street and take the 20 minute trip with no churn, a 360 person train has a capacity of about a thousand riders per hour. Put three trains on the track and you're over 3,000 riders per hour, and it can still be hard to find a seat at Tomorrowland station. Factoring in churn between stations, you're looking at a lot of people riding this iconic attraction. I've seen rumors that the DLRR has the highest ridership statistics out of all the attractions. If you're looking at cost per rider, DLRR is probably average.
Originally Posted By ImgineerBob Bella, the idea for electric cars has been shot around for years, and now that chevron is gone, it may happen soon ,but cm's at this point have heard nothing to concrete other then it's being considered
Originally Posted By TomSawyer You could plop down Mysterious Island with Journey to the Center of the Earth, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and the Aquatopia on that footprint.
Originally Posted By phruby Why would cast members know anything about what is planned for the future? That's like saying the drive thru guy at McDonalds knows what new hamburger corporate will be pushing in the next few months.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Well he did say that it's the most expensive attraction to operate.>> Subs has always been them most expensive attraction to operate. . . Oh wait, what about Indiana Jones and the constant massively expensive tire replacement? I "sub"mit that for those who grouse about the Nemo overlay being so underwhelming and silly, too bad. The original show was just as silly. However, both shows are still amazing in the context of themed entertainment. And to those who have become so jaded and refuse to allow themselves the indignation of stooping down to such a low, low level of intellectual entertainment; Why not look for your shadow and sew the damn thing back on. In other words, get yourself a 10' step ladder so that you may get over yourself.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>While the costs are undoubtedly high, I would be absolutely shocked if they were higher than the Disneyland Railroad.<< (1) Underwater. Don't underestimate how difficult this is to maintain. The Mark Twain is one boat, whereas this is an entire attraction - subs AND surroundings. (2) Heavy staffing requirements per rider. And (from what I've read) one of the worst jobs in the whole resort is sub driver. (3) Expensive digital projector bulbs, and not the standard computer variety used in other attractions. (We're talking thousands of dollars each!) Probably difficult to replace, given the circumstances, and they'd have to be replaced constantly. If just one goes out, then a whole scene goes dark and no subs until it's replaced! (4) All that water to keep clear and pumping. Another big expense right there. (5) Lowest capacity e-ticket on the planet. I guarantee you per rider costs are WAY higher than the DLRR. Run the DLRR in 6 feet of water and cut its seating capacity and load time by 60% and then we'll talk. Another point: The capacity is SO low that you can't really judge its popularity based on the line. If that same line were in front of Pirates, it'd be through in minutes. That doesn't make Pirates less popular. And another: The ride was better when you were looking at **actual** cheesy things out the window. There's really no reason for the darn thing to even be underwater now. The "real" objects are just a 3D set for the computer projections. There's no longer anything **actually** under that water that's worth looking at! The ride, as it exists now, goes to truly stupid lengths to simulate something that could be simulated more realistically through pure 3D digital projection and a few ITTBAB-type seat sensors. I can't think of many scenarios where this would literally be true, but this is one. I've never tried the "alternate experience" version, but I seem to recall folks saying that it was actually a better attraction than the ride in the subs. As well it should be.
Originally Posted By nutmegpeach I am not the biggest fan of the Nemo subs and probably would not lament their removal. But what I find amusing is the debate over the "cost effectiveness" of a ride and how that should perhaps determine it's residence in the park. Ridiculous. As though Disneyland is about to go broke. The whole mentality of - how do we put in attractions as cheaply as possible and then squeeze every last dime out of the guest is exactly the opposite of Walt's approach. What happened to imagineering the new and amazing without scrutinizing the cost? If the Lutz rumors do come true, I sure hope "the new new tomorrowland" isn't another cheap movie re-hash without any original ideas.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The ride was better when you were looking at **actual** cheesy things out the window.<< I do wish they'd have come up with AA's of Nemo and friends rather than the projections. But it also would have been cool if they could have come up with some updated "realistic" sea creatures actually underwater over animated projections. Perhaps some sort of RC fishes that didn't require being tethered via often visible strings. (Or something, I dunno, I'm no Imagineer). Regardless, the subs are still an only-in-Disneyland type of experience. Even with the projections, it's more ambitious and fun to be in "liquid space" for real rather than simulated (like Little Mermaid). I'm glad they're back. Looking at that giant lagoon for years, sitting there empty, was depressing. Now about that People Mover track....
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Whether it happens today or in a decade it's inevitable that the Subs, Autopia, Monorail, etc. will be removed or reimagined eventually. With little room left to expand, and with that corner of the park in desperate need of something, it's seems logical that WDI would be eyeballing it for something new.
Originally Posted By hbquikcomjamesl Electrifying Autopia, without any other significant changes, would barely make it a "today-land" attraction. But something like the "smart highway demonstration" concept I suggested is what it would take to make it truly futuristic. I will say that after you've ridden the REAL submarines that the Atlantis company runs in Hawaii, the Caribbean, and Guam, the DL "subs" seem extremely cramped (which they are, compared to Atlantis) and entirely fake (which they are), but still, I'd hardly convict them of being "bad show."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Their uniqueness is what I like about the subs. But I'd happily wave goodbye and keep the fond memories if they were replaced by something as innovative and "E-ticket-y" as the subs themselves were in 1959.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt >>I'd hardly convict them of being "bad show."<< How about poor show? For someone who has never ridden them the first experience has to be completely underwhelming.
Originally Posted By crapshoot << . . . it's seems logical that WDI would be eyeballing it for something new.>> No question Dr. H. But I still maintain that much of DCA is still in desperate need of further enhancements. As successful as DCA 2.0 is, it was also way under-planned. On one bizarre level, Carsland is a massive failure. It is simply too small an area. One main street wasn't enough, RSR's capacity is way too low. I give WDI and TDA huge kudos for being allowed to turn DCA around. Given the history of the park, I'm not sure which business case model they employed to determine capacity. They had every right to be gun-shy over how successful their efforts would become. Unfortunately, they went way too conservative in their estimates. So yet again, DCA still has the potential of being a guest service nightmare, just 180 degrees from the original's reasons.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "No question Dr. H. But I still maintain that much of DCA is still in desperate need of further enhancements." And DL isn't?
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<And DL isn't?>> Not in the same manner. My guess would be that 30% of DCA's guests are crammed into the 12 acres of Carsland just about all of the time. I mean as wonderful as Buena Vista Street is, it is still a walk through. Other than shops and a cool restaurant, there aren't any guest vacuuming attractions to spread around the guest the load. Carsland is the only significant area of meaningful change. Mermaid is an okay attraction, but as an omnimover guests are in and out and looking for somewhere else to go.
Originally Posted By Manfried Bury the subs, remove the monorail, nuke the peoplemover track, level autopia and implode the carousel building. When you've done all that what do you get? Opportunity.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "I mean as wonderful as Buena Vista Street is, it is still a walk through." You mean like New Orleans Square? Sorry, but I'm not clear what you're trying to say Crapshoot. Parts of DL, Tomorrowland in particular, could use some serious upgrading. I won't even get into the useless unthemed amphitheater behind Fantasyland or the poor traffic flow and abundant bottlenecks at DL. All theme parks are a work in progress. Of course there will be development at both DCA and DL. You're talking as though there'll never be any changes at DCA now that Cars Land is finished.
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<You mean like New Orleans Square?>> More like Main Street. <<Parts of DL, Tomorrowland in particular, could use some serious upgrading.>> Absolutely no argument. <<You're talking as though there'll never be any changes at DCA now that Cars Land is finished.>> My contention is that Carsland is much more successful than what was planned for. And due to that level of success, a new raft of negative guest complaints will follow. Disney could address those complaints by accelerating DCA park enhancements, like replacing Brother Bear with a dark ride for instance. This could result in pushing off any major projects for Disneyland further down the road.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt <<You mean like New Orleans Square?>> More like Main Street." Except Main Street doesn't have an E ticket like RSR and NOS does. "My contention is that Carsland is much more successful than what was planned for. And due to that level of success, a new raft of negative guest complaints will follow." You mean like the ones that happen almost daily at DL because the place is frequently overcrowded? OK, I get what you're saying now, but I don't agree that DCA's development should be accelerated in lieu of fixing some of DL's problems. As we saw with DCA, perception is everything, and DL needs to step up its roster of attractions now more than ever otherwise people will start regarding it the same way they regard the Magic Kingdom: old and stale.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I would be surprised if they don't coast for awhile after investing so heavily in DCA. But it would be awesome if TL was completely revamped and reimagineered.
