Originally Posted By TP2000 Perfect Hans. As I've spent plenty of time in corporate life, I can easily imagine that Disneyland is a maze of fiefdoms and personal kingdoms. That's not a concept exclusive to Disneyland though, as it's found in nearly every corporate culture and large property in the Free World. But that type of thinking generally only guides decisions on a fiscal year by fiscal year basis at best, and a quarter by quarter or week by week basis at worst. When it comes time for the corporate office to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a property, the big boys generally lay down the new rules several years out and basically reinvent the way the world looks to the local managers on the ground. If this project is as big as Al Lutz alludes to, this would be that type of thing. A big change, where the local suits have to adjust to the new world order. For the greater good of the park and company as a whole. Managers who try to undermine those types of major corporate capital expansions rarely get to keep their jobs.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I get that various factions might quarrel over the particulars, but surely the person(s) running the place have the authority to make decisions that consider the long term development of the parks, not just the day to day entitlements of this or that division.>> You miss the point - the resort prez is also remunerated in the same way as the rest of the exec team - it is in his best interest to keep the park as profitable as possible. If F&B won't let go of Festival Arena I don't see George intervening unless they renegotiate targets - losing the Arena would have a massive impact on their STIs.
Originally Posted By TP2000 So why even look at that area at all? Why did Tom Staggs take a tour of the area to begin with? Seems like a bad move to waste the big bosses time like that if local leaders are going to block any future expansion lest they lose their picnic area or their snack bar. The way you paint it leemac, Disneyland is now set in stone for all eternity, and nothing new will ever arrive in the park unless it creates an even swap of receipts between departments. And what's not to say there won't be some fabulous new dining location in the new expansion area that would make up for the lost revenue of the picnic grounds? Again, this type of local fiefdom thinking isn't exclusive to Disneyland, it happens in all big organizations. But when it's time for corporate to lay down some serious cash, that's exactly when the fiefdom's get shook up, broken up, and re-organized under a new world order. Silly to think Disneyland is so rigid and stubborn that they can't build some new rides, shops and restaurants on an existing picnic area.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Yeah, but if F&B GAINS the FaL Theatre in return (and attractions GAINS the festival area plus what's now Circle D) - couldn't that be a win-win? They both lose an area and gain an area. F&B (presumably) can use the FaL space just as profitably, and attractions gets to build the next great E ticket. No?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It does surprise me that Circle D still has 26 horses (?) Really? Other than the streetcars, where do they work? I know they get short shifts, and you'd need numerous horses just for the streetcar... but where are they after that? Are there still two visible from the ROA craft? At any rate, DL used to use more live animals once upon a time. There were horse-drawn surreys on main street, and of course dozens of pack mules. I guess Circle D could be moved to a smaller space than it currently occupies.
Originally Posted By TP2000 I saw a live horse in the Indian Village two weeks ago on the Mark Twain. They are smaller horses than they use on Main Street though.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Yeah, but if F&B GAINS the FaL Theatre in return (and attractions GAINS the festival area plus what's now Circle D) - couldn't that be a win-win? >> The Theater is the only major entertainment venue in the park - Disneyland Entertainment won't want to lose it. Attractions have tried to poach it for years but have never succeeded. It is a terrible venue but Entertainment keep hoping to find the budget to turn it into a first-class indoor theater.
Originally Posted By leemac <<So why even look at that area at all? Why did Tom Staggs take a tour of the area to begin with? >> You always work up ideas - just in case. However you won't see anything on that pad unless there is a significant shift within TDA. Tom has seen inside Wonders of Life since coming to the chairmanship - doesn't mean anything is coming there any time soon. This is now devolving into another Lutz thread - the sycophantic cheer-leaders refusing to accept that he might just be wrong. Al MUST be right......
Originally Posted By leemac <<re-organized under a new world order.>> That made me chuckle. Have a guess how many times WDP&R has created a "new world order" since the division was renamed from WDA. Have a guess. WDP&R executives don't like to upset the apple cart.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Silly to think Disneyland is so rigid and stubborn that they can't build some new rides, shops and restaurants on an existing picnic area. >> As an outsider that might seem "silly" - try working inside that world. Same as everywhere else - you pick and choose the battles to fight. Going up against F&B on the Arena will give you a bloody nose. It did when Mary Niven ran the group and I've no doubt that it hasn't changed since. You guard your assets jealously.
Originally Posted By TP2000 leemac<< "This is now devolving into another Lutz thread - the sycophantic cheer-leaders refusing to accept that he might just be wrong. Al MUST be right......"<< Hmm. Quite frankly, over the course of this interesting conversation this rainy afternoon I had forgotten about the Lutz connection to this topic. But if you want to paint it that way, go for it. Just to get this straight in my mind leemac, are you asserting that Frontierland expansion plans are on on ones front burner right now, and that without major cultural change in Anaheim and Burbank that nothing will ever come of a Frontierland expansion that takes out the Festival Arena and Circle D? That this is all just a Tony Baxter geeky retread that has no heft or legitimacy to it?
Originally Posted By TP2000 "are on on ones front burner" really means "are on no ones front burner". ;-)
Originally Posted By Britain I'd like to ask Leemac this question: Do you think Al is making this all up out of whole cloth, or do you think he IS he reporting actual news (WDI is pitching Staggs about adding attractions to the Circle D ranch area) but you simply think WDI's pitches won't amount to anything?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The Theater is the only major entertainment venue in the park - Disneyland Entertainment won't want to lose it. Attractions have tried to poach it for years but have never succeeded. It is a terrible venue but Entertainment keep hoping to find the budget to turn it into a first-class indoor theater.> Then reopen the space stage in front of SM. Entertainment gets a stage, F&B gets the FaL Theatre for corporate events, and attractions get the FrL expanse. Of course people could squawk. I'm not denying that. That does lead to inertia, and undoubtedly already has. I'm just saying that DL doesn't have that much expansion room left, and that FrL expanse is the most obvious place, unless they figure out a way to get rid of or re-route Autopia/sub buildings/ monorail and PM tracks and re-purpose the NE quadrant. And this is certainly isn't about Lutz for me, who I'm lukewarm on, on the best days. It's trying to figure out where/how they can expand. I'd hate to think departmental infighting would have to equal inertia forever.
Originally Posted By leemac <<But if you want to paint it that way, go for it. >> Maybe I'm being overly tetchy but I get the impression that you perceive these latest rumors to be gospel - you are dealing in absolutes rather than possibilities. <<are on no ones front burner>> There is no money in the pot for DL at the moment - not a penny. Ideas are always being worked up and who knows maybe one will bite. However as far as I'm concerned there is no appetite for an expansion at DL. The resort cannot continue to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into it each year. We've been told to expect a few quieter years after the DCA projects are complete - maybe that will change but with HKDLR/SDLR/DLRP seeing a lot of expenditure in the next decade I don't expect to see much at DLR. DCA needs to demonstrate it can stand on its own two feet. <<Tony Baxter geeky retread>> Tony doesn't get to play with the big boys any more - hence why he has been entirely sidelined on Star Tours. Tom Fitzgerald rules the sandbox now.
Originally Posted By leemac Britain - there are pitches all the time to Tom and the ExCom leadership. There is a constant dialog between each resort, their WDI portfolio representative and ExCom. Stuff gets bounced around all the time and projects for the Frontierland space have been on the agenda for as long as I can remember. The only one I recall that seemed to have any traction was to rejig the boundary so the land became part of Fantasyland - but even that got dropped in the end (despite Jay loving the idea).
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "This is now devolving into another Lutz thread - the sycophantic cheer-leaders refusing to accept that he might just be wrong. Al MUST be right......" Oh god. Here we go. I'm no Al cheerleader, believe me. We're just having fun with a hypothetical scenario about speculation around future DL theme park development. Sheesh.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "However as far as I'm concerned there is no appetite for an expansion at DL." That sounds like what I had assumed.
