Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit... My objection is that the over-development complaint is always targeted at DVC. As I pointed out in a post the total number of DVC units at WDW is only 50% the number of units at the combined All Stars. The development of standard hotel rooms at WDW since 1990 totally dwarfs the development of DVC units. Why the widely held resentment of DVC?>> I can't say for certain, but my guess is that it's the way it is marketed down the throats of guests ... you simply can't escape th sales job (and let's cut any/all b.s. ... it may not be 1980s boiler-room tactics, but it is ALL about selling timeshares when people are in WDW parks and resorts). And lately (like post-2001) almost all resorts opened have been timeshare. Only Pop Century (and it's new Animation half) are not DVC ... and Pop was greenlit and largely constructed between 1999-2001 anyway (only 9/11 kept it mothballed until 2003). ... So when folks hear/read about new lodgings at WDW, well ... it's been a decade of DVC. But, as I've said, it isn't a DVC problem. It is a TDO philosophical business model problem. DVC is simply part of it.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer That's the cookies, for you...It knows you are talking about it. And it knows that marketing works on you, too. ;-)
Originally Posted By dshyates I am with Spirit on this one. In '91-'92 wdw went from being a theme park/ entertainment resort to a real estate development. That was the time where the MK last saw real creative attention with it's last E-Ticket and nighttime parade. Since then wdw has been on a lodging building spree. And the parks are simply an amenity for the resorts. The parks are no more important to WDW management than the pool at any standard timeshare development.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I am with Spirit on this one. In '91-'92 wdw went from being a theme park/ entertainment resort to a real estate development.>> I think you are ignoring some pretty significant accomplishments that have happened at WDW since that time. The Animal Kingdom opened, a park that is one of Disney's greatest achievements. It may have been light on "rides" when first opened, but no other Disney Park has so perfectly captured the look and feel of the areas it is supposed to represent. Truly a Disney masterpiece. Opening of the Tower of Terror at the Studios. The WDW ToT is arguably one of Florida's best attractions. The show building, the queue, the story telling... all are truly exceptional. Opening of the Rock n Roller Coaster at the Studios. While not done with the exquisite attention to detail found at ToT, it is still an excellent attraction. Definitely one of Disney's finest coasters. Illuminations, Reflections of Earth at Epcot. Even after a decade, it is still without a doubt Disney's finest nighttime spectacular. Tapestry of Nations/Dreams parade at Epcot. The parades were truly extraordinary... probably my all-time favorite Disney parades. Unfortunately the crowding resulting from them virtually shut down the Showcase after 7 PM so they did not stick around very long. The Boardwalk entertainment area has become a WDW destination in its own right. The crowds you find there in the evenings are NOT just people staying at the Boardwalk resort. Expedition Everest at the Animal Kingdom is another excellent attraction. Again, as with the ToT, the theming, show building, queue and story-telling are all outstanding. Sure, it has a freaking AA that doesn't work. Pretty insignificant when evaluating the overall attraction. This will certainly irritate some, but I consider both the Wilderness Lodge and the Animal Kingdom Lodge to be outstanding additions to WDW. Both hotels are truly remarkable and well worth a visit even if you aren't staying there. So if you want to think that WDW has been totally stagnant since 1991 that is certainly your right. But I have to strongly disagree.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 If you stick to Spirit's time frame of post 2001, the point is much clearer. And I think this decade has been the one of most notable decline, without much debate, correct?
Originally Posted By leobloom >> Illuminations, Reflections of Earth at Epcot. Even after a decade, it is still without a doubt Disney's finest nighttime spectacular. << Certainly not the "finest nighttime spectacular" "without a doubt" since some people find it boring, pretentious, and boring. >> Expedition Everest at the Animal Kingdom is another excellent attraction. Again, as with the ToT, the theming, show building, queue and story-telling are all outstanding. Sure, it has a freaking AA that doesn't work. Pretty insignificant when evaluating the overall attraction. << LMAO. Insignificant. Guess it depends on your perspective. I'm not bothering to ride it until the thing is repaired. If I want a mountainous roller coaster with no impressive animatronics, I'll ride Big Thunder.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Yes, you can make a stronger case with the years since 2001. Significant changes since then have been pretty few. For me, the addition of the AK covers a multitude of sins, but that will only last so long. Like not much longer. I also think that Mission Space, Soarin', and the re-working of The Living Seas have been very significant. I know many would disagree with me on that which is why I did not list them before. I would like to have included the Spaceship Earth renovation on my list but couldn't. Never has more time been spent doing so little.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I am with Spirit on this one. In '91-'92 wdw went from being a theme park/ entertainment resort to a real estate development.>> Being on the Spirited side of any discussion is not ever easy, but it is always righteous and worthy ... it is almost like a ticket to the Chosen Land! But Trippy, who incidentally should be enjoying his new wedded bliss before she realizes he is a nut who spends copious amounts of time online devoted to arguing over a cartoon Mouse and runs for the hills ;-) ... has to (of course) be contrary, so let's take a look at what the dude has pulled out of his tush (can't use a stronger word anymore, sorry adults!): <<I think you are ignoring some pretty significant accomplishments that have happened at WDW since that time.>> Granted ... 1991-92 was a lifetime ago ... literally for a teen. It sure seemed like everything in the world and the World was a whole lot better then. But I wouldn't go back that far because I think WDW was still trying and getting better ... I think Dave pulled the date out because that was when DVC started and when Disney decided to go forward on Celebration. In essence, it was when WDW Co. stopped being a themed resort/entertainment complex and became a giant hotel and timeshare complex that happens to have theme parks to keep guests busy during the days. <<The Animal Kingdom opened, a park that is one of Disney's greatest achievements. It may have been light on "rides" when first opened, but no other Disney Park has so perfectly captured the look and feel of the areas it is supposed to represent. Truly a Disney masterpiece.>> I would agree. But I'd also say opening DAK was like a dagger into the heart of WDW. It already was at its breaking point with things like cast quality and transportation ... and due to things like Euro Disney's opening, Frank Wells' untimely demise, the ABC/Cap Cities takeover, the start of the decline of WDFA ... WDW was no longer a priority in Burbank except to generate income/profit. I do believe that taking everything into consideration, and it pains me to say it, but DAK likely shouldn't have been built ... at least as it was and in that timeframe. Of course, I'd never tell Joe Rohde that ... and I love it so much, but it doesn't change my mindset. Disney couldn't adequetly run, staff and maintain three parks and it went and opened a fourth. <<Opening of the Tower of Terror at the Studios. The WDW ToT is arguably one of Florida's best attractions. The show building, the queue, the story telling... all are truly exceptional.>> True. But you're talking about an attraction that was approved in 1990 ... way too far back. And it still got significant elements taken out ... let's not forget originally it was conceived as a real hotel ... OK ... blue sky ... then, you would have had a tour of the hotel (a la Mansion) before the climax in the shafts (yeah, I just used climax and shafts in the same sentence!) ... so, even the amazing ride we got was still not what WDI was capable of back then. <<Opening of the Rock n Roller Coaster at the Studios. While not done with the exquisite attention to detail found at ToT, it is still an excellent attraction. Definitely one of Disney's finest coasters.>> I almost want to even give you this one, Trippy ... almost. But I won't. It's a cheap, short, rough coaster in an empty soundstage building with almost no theming or effects. Again, look at the original concepts ... how about an indoor/outdoor coaster in pink cadillacs that streaks thru a replica of the Hollywood sign. C'mon ... fanbois, I can't be the only one who recalls some of the plans. <<Illuminations, Reflections of Earth at Epcot. Even after a decade, it is still without a doubt Disney's finest nighttime spectacular.>> Now, you start grasping ... sure, it was a great show. In some ways, still is. But basically it is a very tired show (and I would tell that to Don Dorsey's face if I happened to be seeing him this weekend at WDW, which I am not) ... and the whole idea of an uplifting 'We Go On' show in the face of 9/11, multiple wars, The Patriot Act, the loss of tens of millions of jobs, Katrina, near economic collapse etc just comes off as beyond tired at this point. I may well be realistic (some would say cynical, I'd say they're wrong and need to see the world as it is for others and not how it is for them) but this show just seems so antiquated ... and Dorsey himself has said the whole 'We Go On' has come to take on a sad message that was never intended. Y2K has come and gone and the world has gone to hell. Now, the time has come to try something else. <<Tapestry of Nations/Dreams parade at Epcot. The parades were truly extraordinary... probably my all-time favorite Disney parades. Unfortunately the crowding resulting from them virtually shut down the Showcase after 7 PM so they did not stick around very long.>> No. They didn't stick around because they cost money ... also they were one of the only temporary show/parade/pyro/icon etc that actually just stayed for the length of time intended. <<The Boardwalk entertainment area has become a WDW destination in its own right. The crowds you find there in the evenings are NOT just people staying at the Boardwalk resort.>> Bunk. Pure and simple. BW is dead most nights. No one goes there but conventioneers staying in the EPCOT resort area and families walking back to their rooms/villas. I've been there on weekends and they have everything closed at 11 p.m. ... how in the world is that a happening night entertainment zone? One bar open? One Sports bar/dining facility? There was a time when most/all locations stayed open until at least midnight or 1 a.m. nightly with others until 2. At 2 your only company will be a few bunnies and duckies. <<Expedition Everest at the Animal Kingdom is another excellent attraction. Again, as with the ToT, the theming, show building, queue and story-telling are all outstanding. Sure, it has a freaking AA that doesn't work. Pretty insignificant when evaluating the overall attraction. >> The closest thing to a real E-Ticket in the last five years. Unfortunately, it's one attraction in one park and has major flaws ... and when most of its key effects aren't working, which is all the time, it's barely worth the effort of riding. <<This will certainly irritate some, but I consider both the Wilderness Lodge and the Animal Kingdom Lodge to be outstanding additions to WDW. Both hotels are truly remarkable and well worth a visit even if you aren't staying there.>> Since those are my two favorite Disney resorts, I'd have to agree with you. But one (WL) began construction in 1991 and opened in 1994 and the other began in 1998 and opened in 2001 ... again, I'm largely saying the last decade has been one of decline and you're picking and choosing things, many that were approved/built when the other Bush or Bubba were in the White House. <<So if you want to think that WDW has been totally stagnant since 1991 that is certainly your right. But I have to strongly disagree.>> I would totally disagree myself. The point is 1991 was when a not so subtle shift happened at WDW ... when it became a land development company and not a theme park operator, first and foremost. But I'll gladly say that the last decade has been one of almost universal decline ... (eagerly awaits Trippy mentioning things like TSMM, Soarin and Wishes happening during this period ...)
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Well, as I said in my follow-up post I would agree that the years following 2001 have been pretty slim. I was responding to the post 91-92 era that dshyates gave. I really can't quibble much with your response. My only real disagreement would be about Illuminations. I think that even though the theme may be out of date, it is still a remarkable combination of music, pyro and other effects. And being a direct descendent of Professor Pangloss, I still optimistically cling to its rather quaint message. I also must admit to a large amount of personal bias. It was Rosie's favorite thing to do at WDW. We loved going over to Epcot about 8PM, getting a table by the lagoon rail at France and having a couple of glasses of wine while waiting for and watching Illuminations. Those times hold some of my absolute best memories of WDW. On the other hand, Ann thought the show was nice enough, but our second night at Epcot she preferred going back to our room rather than watching the show a second time. So we were on the Friendship back to Boardwalk when Illuminations started. Ann and I have even talked about how we need to make new Disney memories together. That the shared history of WDW that I had before is just no longer there. After our Disney Cruise, we decided that is probably where most of our Disney memories will be made. As for Boardwalk, I agree that it is dead after 11PM. Early evening though it was packed during our visit and I didn't see that many dress shirts or "Hello, My Name is" tags around. I think if more places there stayed open later they would attract a very good post-Illuminations crowd. As for enjoying wedded bliss before Ann finds out I'm a Disney nut; I think she already knows. I asked her to fly to LA with me for an LP meet at Disneyland when I had known her less than three weeks. For our honeymoon we went to WDW and on a Disney Cruise. I could have never married someone who wouldn't do Disney stuff!! LOL
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But Trippy, you guys need to come on over to Paris and visit Mr X in Tokyo too. Then we can call you a Disney geek ;-) I cannot believe I have persevered with this thread when there is so much going on. I suppose reading the debate of many distnguished LPers is too tempting instead of paying attention to work, family etc. My take is this, Disney parks have been in decline for a minimum of 10 years, and the real catalyst I hate to say was the problems with EuroDisney as was and the death of Frank Wells, and Iger has made it even worse into a step change of not giving a damn about the parks. Even Lee MAc has said on LP he wonders if Disney would leave the theme park industry if they could. And in Paris, they have sold off most of the land they had bought. It kept them afloat this year, but what will happen next, especially as the newly elected British government are trying to kill the Middle classes in there deficit balancing measures that is trying to also kill the world class socialist structures that have been developing for 75 years. But I digress. I do think DVC is the best chance WDW has. It is a constant revenue stream and there is vocal fan base that has made much more of an investment than a fan boi in South Fla with an AP or the don't know any better pixie dust snorting Brits that are quite happy on I Drive. Between having deeded property and the ability to act on maintenance fees and governance boards, there can be a real force there. There is a concern about overbuilding that I think we all agree with. However, that is a different issue, and Roadtrip has already covered that off. AS for building, I agree with RT's list of great new additions (except Nemo and the stupid AA in Forbidden Mountain). I would also add Lights Motors Action to the list of great additions, and the Finding Nemo show in DAK too. Yak and Yeti was a lovely addition (OMG, I am supporting WDW here?!!!). Also I too would add IROE as the finest night time show in the DIsney universe coupled with Rememeber Dreams Come True at DL. However it is not enough to balance out the loss of cleaning and maintenance in the parks, poor quality trasport infrastructures, dumbing down of menues and merchandise, the cutting of entertainment, the reduction in hours, the staggered opening and closing of facilities, substandard service in even the Deluxe Hotels (I get better service at a Travelodge than most of the cast we met at AKL last time). I also think there is some jealousy on the part of non DVC owners. But I am an elitist who thinks the value resorts never should have been built and are the real carbunckle on property. But let's face it gang, Disney is not what it was. DVCers will love it rather than face buyers remorse. Those who really stop loving it will just sell. Some people will always have a great time because they hardly ever get vacations, so they have a great time when they do, and just when we all lose hope, Disney will go and do something that totally surprises us and hooks us back in.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip << But I am an elitist who thinks the value resorts never should have been built and are the real carbunckle on property.>> OK. Now it has been said, and despite my somewhat liberal leanings I have to agree. WDW jumped the shark when they put more "Value" rooms on-site than any other category. They totally changed their customer base, and now attract those who expect something completely different from the Disney experience than what was expected before. CHEAP EATS!! PICS WITH RUBBERHEADS!! FREEBIE TRANSIT EVEN IF IT SUCKS!! Has Disney been “dumbed down” because of DVC’ers who can write a check or finance a purchase of at least $15,000 for future vacations? Not likely! Damn, Dave... I thank you for this whole new line of discussion. Time once again for some more popcorn!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed Roadtrip, and PAris is suffering from the same issue. we have dining plans where a number of the good restaurants have been turned into all you can gorge buffets of dubious quality. There are no Dapper Dans or piano players on Main Street, but there is a train that delivers characters to meet, greet and groaps on the hub every day. Two of Disney's finest stage shows were shuttered, but there is a low capcity carnival that opened this year themed to your favourite oversaturated Toy Story Characters. This is why DL, while much more dumbed down than it once was, is my prefered model. Regular visitors want to be dazzled. Characters are not important, but good food options and live varied entertainment are. And because land is a premium, they are not interested in values. I am not being uber elitist, there are cheap and good quality lodgings on Harbour Bvd in Ca and off 197, Lake Buena Vista and I Drive in WDW. Many of us remember the days of ticket books where there were limitations of what you could do, but the quality was there. Sadly the Walmart crowd want quantity, whereas the threshold for quality is lower. Many of us old timers (some of us younger than others ;-) want quality, the quality that made us fall in love with the Mouse. If you work 70 hour weeks in chicago and rarely get vacation time, of course you are going to love it. If you have travelled half way across the world and scrimped and saved, then again, people feel thankful. But for me, I am sad that there are now better options out there for us. I want to love WDW the way I used to. In 2000, I felt that although some things were not as good as others, there was enough to justify it. But free dining or not, I would rather go to Anahiem, Tokyo, even Paris for the quality on offer. The annoying part is it is not a difficult fix. I am not asking for new e-tickets all the time, I just want quality and choice back.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Certainly not the "finest nighttime spectacular" "without a doubt" since some people find it boring, pretentious, and boring. <<< I usually don't associate with people that think that. ;-)
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Opening of the Rock n Roller Coaster at the Studios. While not done with the exquisite attention to detail found at ToT, it is still an excellent attraction. Definitely one of Disney's finest coasters.>> Finest coasters? It lasts less then a minute. I'd hardly call that "fine". <<The Boardwalk entertainment area has become a WDW destination in its own right. The crowds you find there in the evenings are NOT just people staying at the Boardwalk resort.>> It's also no where near as crowded as PI was. <<Expedition Everest at the Animal Kingdom is another excellent attraction. Again, as with the ToT, the theming, show building, queue and story-telling are all outstanding. Sure, it has a freaking AA that doesn't work. Pretty insignificant when evaluating the overall attraction. >> EE is the single most overrated attraction on WDW property. And to say it's climax isn't working is insignificant is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. << also think that Mission Space, Soarin', and the re-working of The Living Seas have been very significant. I know many would disagree with me on that which is why I did not list them before.>> Soarin', yea. Mission: Space was a bomb, as much as I hate to admit it, and Nemo's drawing power has mostly warned off, even though I enjoy the attraction.
Originally Posted By leemac I lost the will to live on this thread dozens of posts ago but I did want to comment on one aspect. Anyone that suggests that DVC has no impact on the rest of WDP&R doesn't understand how capital projects are approved at major corporations. DVC isn't ring-fenced and independent from the rest of the business unit. WDP&R's capital spend is board-approved. That pot of money can then be allocated to individual projects (it does happen both ways - specific projects being added together to one sum requested from the board and a generic pool of cash that can be allocated after approval). WDP&R CFO Jim Hunt brought in a full cost model for project evaluation when he replaced Byron. All projects are funded from a central pool of capin/capex. DVC is fighting for cash in the same way that all other WDP&R projects are. The issue is that it is far easier to show a strong NPV from a DVC development compared to adding a new E-ticket to a park - the numbers are independent of any outside factors and easier for management to digest and approve. That is precisely why we have so many hotels down at WDW now. In the past attractions like ToT were approved "just because" - ie. it was the right thing to do for that park irrespective of whether a positive NPV could be shown. Those projects are far fewer in the current era of WDP&R. DVC does have an impact on WDW Co's ability to invest in their overall resort. It doesn't mean that a new DVC resort means that a park won't get a new attraction but it does diminish the in-berm opportunities. It is far easier to approve a standalone hotel development (particularly with construction rates still so cheap - Art of Animation is coming in at 25% less per sq ft than Pop Century a decade ago) than to invest in the parks.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub I also want to thank Leemac because he has saved me from going thru a storage unit this weekend to find my original DVC contracts. I searched thru my yearly budget notice from the Wilderness Lodge but that only details the WL budget not the allocations specific utilized by WDW. I did not want to "explain" my previous post until I felt I understood this discussion better.I was misunderstood as anti- DVC which I am not obviously. But I have learned alot from this discussion and hope to hear from DVCers that have actually attended yearly meetings and the background politics and "power" issued by DVCers with their expectations voiced at meetings.
