Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<so I ask you in return, why is THAT so hard to understand ?>> Apples and oranges. DisCo has chosen not to invest in both DVC and the parks. They could do both<< why is it so hard to understand that they may choose to do neither in this economic climate ? Where do you get this assumption that they suddenly would plow all kinds of money into the parks- what gives you that impression ? The previous 10 years before that ? Certainly not.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 DisCo has a choice: either they invest in WDW parks or they don't. DisCo has chosen to invest in DVC instead of the parks. Most of us here believe that's a huge mistake. Why is THAT so difficult to understand? < what part of 'instead of' do you base your information on skinner ? They are in no obligation to spend any damn money.. you seem to think they have a simplistic chart on the wall in corporate that says, oh no, only one or the other but the money is burining a hole in our pockters - we HAVE to spend it somewhere. In case you haven't looked in the real world MOST people are not spending heavily right now- but trying to raise cash and pay down debt and you can stop with the why is that so hard to understand as I am not a child - and likely have made many more of these decision than you have. Mocking doesn't make you look any brighter
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<Skinnerbox I totally understand where you are coming from but no-one of us knows that saturation is approaching. We can certainly surmise as much but it is pure conjecture. I've seen the projections and WDW Co. is absolutely convinced that they haven't exhausted that gold mine yet.<< I'm not even going to re write this skinner read it for what it is.. "but no-one of us knows that saturation is approaching" "I've seen the projections and WDW Co. is absolutely convinced that they haven't exhausted that gold mine yet" but of course you know better. Might Disney be wrong ? Sure- they could be..but based on analytical trends it appears they are not-at least not yet- regardless of "most people here" as you quote opinion. It is a surer thing today than money for attractions - that is the reason. The days of Walt throwing all his money into Snow White are 80 years in the past... I admire him for that courage, but it doesn't mean it works every time. Bankruptcy courts are full of those whose go for it all now approach did not work.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 For skinner et. al.. let me be perfectly clear so that the damn misquotes can stop. 1/ I am not against investing in the parks - I believe it has to be done but would like to be more comfortable in the economic climate before they do so ( I also don't believe you can ignore the $2.1 B recently laid out for DCA and HK--you seem to like that Lee has shown they all co-exist - except when it comes to acknowledging this fact.) 2/ I am not for unbridled expansion of DVC - anywhere forever..not at all. I have stated that I also have some concerns over open space for instance. However if projections still show that there is a market that HAS NOT waned for DVC units - then since they reprsent a smill small portion of all WDW rooms - build them and collect that cash from consumers. When those sales number per year start to drop significantly - stop and build no more, until something changes 3/ I refuse to believe the nonsense that they are going to spend $xx each fiscal year and they have put it all into DVC and nothing into parks (the $2.1 billion is proof of that) - or that if they stopped building DVC units tomorrow they would take $xx and immediately put it into the parks. Those decisions are not that simplistic ( except on chat room boards) and have too many variables.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<It is a surer thing today than money for attractions - that is the reason. The days of Walt throwing all his money into Snow White are 80 years in the past... I admire him for that courage, but it doesn't mean it works every time. Bankruptcy courts are full of those whose go for it all now approach did not work.>> See, this is where I have a problem with this way of thinking. Yes, if Disney went balls to the wall and built an E-ticket per park across the landscape I'd understand about taking a huge risk. But small additions that hare needed here or there isn't going to bankrupt a company like Disney.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>>our kids and grandkids will pay dearly for that<<< <<I am more worried that our kids and grand kids are going to pay dearly if we end up in a society that does not innovate, take risks and create. Indeed I am worried that people will get left behind as the polarisation and selfishness of conservatism takes hold. Better to take risks and live than to exist and diminish in fear. Who dares wins!>> To heck with kids and grandkids ... I worry about MY WORLD (and my WDW too!) ... when you hit 40, you don't have the luxury (as I tell my 20-something friends) to wait 10-15 years to see if American can pull itself off the ground and aspire to greatness again. At that rate, and with the way things are going, I'll be dead long before ... and I really tend to want to make it to at least 108 (my grandfather's goal, which he sadly didn't hit). I am so tired of small-mindedness that says we can't tax the wealthy ... we can't provide education and healthcare for our kids ... we can't keep our infrastructure from falling apart (shoutout to the idiot GOP Gov of NJ who just killed a huge train project to Manhattan that would have provided jobs and infrastructure ... can't raise taxes ... nope ... not unless it's for a war) ... anyway ... Disney is never going to come close to standing for what the man and his organization stood for last century unless they start doing the right things every once in a while 'just because' ... they have spent a good 10-15 years in FLA on Walmarting the product. Time to stop. Or just admit that being better than Six Flags (but not necessarily Universal or Sea World) is all that matters. Oh, and great points from my pals across the Pond in the UK. Any thread with Dave and Lee in it will always be a better thread! Now ... can't we all agree that DVC just plain sucks and is Satan's work? ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<in today's economy Lee- if this was your family company and the jobs of hundreds of thusands of people depended on your decisions.. would you go back to the 'just because' method ?>> <<I'm not advocating that - but investment in the parks will continue to lag behind until Hunt's model is ditched. I've hated the model since it was first introduced. You need a more holistic approach that also includes intangible benefits that can't be measured in an income statement.>> I like this Leemac so much better than the circa 2003 version ... this one makes sense (almost) all the time!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm no DVC hater - but I do believe it has had a negative impact on the allocation of capital at WDW. It has become the heroin monkey and Jim Lewis will continue to ride that monkey until they kill their own market through oversaturation. Point rates are being discounted heavily again now and secondary market rates have collapsed - there isn't an unlimited market of DVC investors and I'll be amazed if they can continue on this clip.>> They'll do with DVC what they have done with everything from pins to character meals to airing Millionaire 654 times a week on ABC ... they never know when to say when. WDW needs no more DVC ... for now ... and likely many years. It also doesn't need any resort hotels either. They constantly discount now (despite whatever lies they'll tell Wall Street).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It also doesn't need any resort hotels either.>> Thank you for including the resort hotels in your statement. That is why I feel many here are just plain anti-DVC. They always rip on DVC and never say a work about the hotels. As you can tell by the massive discounting and the half-built Pop Century, the hotels are WAY more overbuilt than DVC is.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Haven't had time to read all 300+ posts in this thread, but I get the gist. Has anyone here raised the fact that an expansion plan has existed for the Lodge from its inception? Back at the beginning of THE DISNEY DECADE (ah, the nineties...), this was the proposal for Fort Wilderness Lodge: <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k375/newdug/Disneys%20Wilderness%20Junction/?action=view¤t=GEWildernessLodge.jpg&" target="_blank">http://s325.photobucket.com/al...dge.jpg&</a>#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs325.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk375%2Fnewdug%2FDisneys%2520Wilderness%2520Junction%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DWildernessLodge1990.jpg%26 Not just a hotel, this included "Fort Wilderness Junction," a small town area, accessible by rail, built next to River Country, and encompassing the existing Pioneer Hall. There is no trace of DVC in this plan-- the Villas were later built in the area set aside for the train loop and "Medicine Wheel." Here's how the area looks today: <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k375/newdug/Disneys%20Wilderness%20Junction/?action=view¤t=GEWildernessLodge.jpg&" target="_blank">http://s325.photobucket.com/al...dge.jpg&</a>#!oZZ2QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs325.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk375%2Fnewdug%2FDisneys%2520Wilderness%2520Junction%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DGEWildernessLodge.jpg%26 No Wilderness Junction... no choo choo... but we did get DVC units. (Disclosure: I am a satisfied member of DVC. Welcome HOME!) Here's the plans for that DVC unit (not certain this is exactly what they built): <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k375/newdug/Disneys%20Wilderness%20Junction/?action=view¤t=GEWildernessLodge.jpg&" target="_blank">http://s325.photobucket.com/al...dge.jpg&</a>#!oZZ3QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs325.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk375%2Fnewdug%2FDisneys%2520Wilderness%2520Junction%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DWildernessLodgeDVC.jpg%26 Note that the oddly angled walkway is integrated into this plan. That was supposed to be the platform for the train taking registered hotel guests off to Wilderness Junction. And here's a detailed plan for "Disney's Settlement Junction:" <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k375/newdug/Disneys%20Wilderness%20Junction/?action=view¤t=GEWildernessLodge.jpg&" target="_blank">http://s325.photobucket.com/al...dge.jpg&</a>#!oZZ4QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs325.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk375%2Fnewdug%2FDisneys%2520Wilderness%2520Junction%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DWildernessJunctionPLAN.jpg%26 That's Pioneer Hall just left of center, set back from it's own little town square at the junction of Main Street (running from the depot to the dock) and Front Street (lined with rental units, and leading to River Country on the left). Here's how this area looks today: <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/albums/k375/newdug/Disneys%20Wilderness%20Junction/?action=view¤t=GEWildernessLodge.jpg&" target="_blank">http://s325.photobucket.com/al...dge.jpg&</a>#!oZZ5QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs325.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk375%2Fnewdug%2FDisneys%2520Wilderness%2520Junction%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DGEPioneerLodge.jpg%26 So... will the "new" DVCs we are fairly certain are on the way utilize any of these existing plans? Bear in mind that River Country was still viable when these were proposed. That's certainly no longer the case. Maybe it is time to do something new here-- even if it really is twenty years old.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<if you are going to put words into my mouth - please at least try and get it right will ya - no one has said they are against more money to the parks. Read my posts- and try and comprehend- I said the parks need investment- but economic conditions what they are now may not be the right time>> Sorry, buddy, but this needs to be said: if not now, when? Seriously, please look at WDW's track record over the last 10-15 years (and please don't pull out pyro shows or renamed parades or cloned C-tickets etc) ... where has TWDC invested substantially in the parks? Whether times have been good or bad (and I'd argue the mess we are in started way back in the 90s and has been below the surface well before the depre... I mean 'recession' officially hit in 2007), Disney hasn't put money into the FLA parks in large measure. They haven't ... but they have taken things away and cut, cut, cut, cut, cut at each and every aspect of what makes WDW 'magical'. They need to take some of the money they throw around and put it into the parks. ALL OF THEM ... QUICKLY! WDW is stale and no amount of pixie dust will change that. <<You keep making this a simplistic decision, for God's sake man, it is not. >> Wrong, VBDAD. It is simple. You can't run a creative enterprise like WDW ... something living, breathing, organic in its own way without feeding it capital. MK is pathetic these days. Seriously. Walls don't get me excited. Cleaning Space Mountain doesn't get me excited. Even nice rehabs to Mansion and HoP don't get me excited because I was conditioned to EXPECT that from Disney. Not pins, not plush, not character meet-greet-and-gropes ... but just plain amazing Disney quality. That's not what you get in O-Town now. <<This is a major corp with plenty of people on the payroll and everything from teachers pensions to individual 401ks invested in their stock. Try and take into consideration something other than adding another whee coaster.>> Disney doesn't give a damn about its cast or its guests. It cares about making the most money possible for its top shareholders and execs and making Wall Street analysts, who have no clue about entertainment largely because they possess no hearts or souls. Don't make this about 'if Disney added an E-Ticket then 6,754 people would have to be laid off ... or grandma would lose her investment and have to eat cat food' ... it's simplistic and not accurate. <<When the time is right I am ALL FOR adding more things. Do you ignore the fact that Disney has laid out over $2B in the last few years for DCA and HK ? >> And do you know something simple and basic? If they hadn't gone with building parks on the cheap and trying to fool the masses, that wouldn't have been necessary ... the same mistakes that were made by Eisner and Pressler and Rasulo are continuing to this day. <<Do you think they have a magical basket of unlimited funds ? They HAD to fix DCA...and the HK venture was speculative. So they are supposed to do it everywhere at once ? I wish they had laid some into Florida too, but they didn't->> And it shows ... OTOH, I am really looking forward to seeing HKDL again in a few weeks! ... it may be small and lacking in many ways, but at least the quality still appears to be there.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 heck with kids and grandkids ... I worry about MY WORLD (and my WDW too!) ... when you hit 40, you don't have the luxury (as I tell my 20-something friends) to wait 10-15 years to see if American can pull itself off the ground and aspire to greatness again ------ trust me it's even less fun at 55
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Now ... can't we all agree that DVC just plain sucks and is Satan's work? ;-) ---- I think admin should change the title of the thread to that ;-)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 But small additions that hare needed here or there isn't going to bankrupt a company like Disney --- 1/ it would never be enough - look at the bitccchin over FL 2/ addedto $2.1 B already out there and again they are not so cash rich as to lay out more now this is no way says I am not all for maintaining what you already have to the highest standards ( just in case someone decides to speak for me again)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I like this Leemac so much better than the circa 2003 version ... this one makes sense (almost) all the time! --- only vaguely remember the 2003 version since that is when I started here..but this one is very good
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>They HAD to fix DCA...<< Yes. And someday, when the DVCs aren't selling and guest backlash is expensive enough, they'll "have to " fix WDW as well. Pity it has to come to that. I wonder if it is the APs or the DVC buyers Disney really listens to. The more I think about it, they already have their money -- a sizeable chunk of those folks are uber-fans. They live for Disney and will support them no matter what. They're buying past memories as much, if not more, than future experiences. It's the people willing to not take a Disney vacation, even though they have the means, that Disney ought to really consider.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It also doesn't need any resort hotels either.>> <<Thank you for including the resort hotels in your statement. That is why I feel many here are just plain anti-DVC. They always rip on DVC and never say a work about the hotels. As you can tell by the massive discounting and the half-built Pop Century, the hotels are WAY more overbuilt than DVC is.>> Trippy, I am NOT anti-DVC ... I can't say that enough. I am 100% against building anymore DVC at WDW and 100% against building any more resort rooms at WDW. Period. They don't need them. And, as leemac said, they likely won't stop until it is way too late. They need to look at the economy. Drive around the area, even their MAGICal Celebration to realize that there isn't a never-ending supply of guests who want to stay on property (be it as a resort guest or DVC owner). WDW turning into a real estate development company is suicide in the long run ... but again, why should they care? When the anvil falls, the heads it should hit will be long gone counting their millions. Disney is like 99.9% of American corporations today ... ignorant, short-sighted and ... yeah, likely evil!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<(Disclosure: I am a satisfied member of DVC. Welcome HOME!) << stick around DD-- there are those here that will convince you that cannot be
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<1/ it would never be enough - look at the bitccchin over FL>> Different situation. MK is the one park that without a doubt is dying for an E-ticket. And even then, the changes that were made to the plans have calmed amny of the naysayers. The thing was made up of meet and greets. Of course that wasn't good enough.
