Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Do you consider yourself no longer an American just because Congress sucks?<< I would call myself Australian, because that's where I live now.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Note that's not Jesus speaking. It's Paul. It's very much his personal opinion; he doesn't even claim it for Jesus. <>>It's worth noting that most American Catholics don't agree with that official Vatican stance on gay people. Or birth control. Or celibacy for priests. Or quite a few other things I could mention. << That sounds like 'picking and choosing'. > Newsflash: unless you're a total fundamentalist (of whatever stripe), EVERYONE does that. In every religion. On contraception, for instance, you could just as easily call it "recognizing that with 7 billion of us on the planet and counting, the prohibitions against contraception put in place when it was all the very small Jewish community could do to keep their numbers steady... no longer makes a lick of sense." <If you question or don't believe a stack of things - Then by definition - You're no longer "Catholic". You are something else. > I'm not Catholic myself, but most Catholics I know would consider that nonsense, and it's really not up to anyone but themselves to label them as "Catholic" or not. <Do you consider yourself no longer an American just because Congress sucks? > Thank you.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It's Paul. It's very much his personal opinion; he doesn't even claim it for Jesus.<< Actually, if we're talking about the pastoral epistles, it's very unlikely it was even Paul, but someone later. These epistles, in addition to objecting to homosexuality, are especially harsh towards women, and they do not match Paul's style in other letters.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Do you consider yourself no longer an American just because Congress sucks?<< False equivalency. 1) Leaving a religious institution, while no doubt personally difficult and painful (trust me) is usually not logistically difficult. Leaving a country is next-to-impossible for all but the most well off. Even if you don't leave, you'll still be required to pay taxes, etc. 2) Democracy is messy. Get ten friends together and try and get them to decide on what to have for dinner, let alone on what taxes should look like. This is part of the Congress' dysfunction. Conversely, get ten friends together and ask them what should happen to child molesters. If anyone says, "They should not be prosecuted or arrested but be secretly moved to another location (where they still interact with children) and no one in the new location notified of their previous crimes," I'll buy you an annual pass. 3) If we discover that several government officials were raping children, and Congress had an official policy, endorsed by all the leadership, that went on for years, of covering up these rapes, then we can talk.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Note that's not Jesus speaking. It's Paul. It's very much his personal opinion; he doesn't even claim it for Jesus.<< That was awesome - "It's very much his personal opinion." Like so much of that book. Thanks!
Originally Posted By oc_dean If I may :O) ..... Here in Australia is the "Aussie Burger" ... a piece of hamburger meat, an egg, piece of ham, beat, and lettuce and tomato. I take out the egg .... and sometime the ham - I picked and choose. It's no longer an "Aussie" Burger - once I took out what made it an "Aussie" Burger to begin with! ;o)
Originally Posted By ecdc I will reiterate: if we were talking about any other kind of institution, there is no way we'd be having this conversation. Only a religious institution could have, as official policy, the practice of covering up child sexual abuse in such a way that it actually led to additional children being abused, and still have apologists and adherents. Would you shop at a business that did this? Would you support a school that did this (or send your children to it)? Would you root for a sports team that did this? This is supposed to be the church of Christ. We can't set the bar a little higher than "don't rape children?" If a systematic coverup of child sexual abuse can't convince you that your church isn't a divine institution, then you are a pretzel of compartmentalization.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The United States consistently ignored both spouse and child abuse until the last 30 years. What do you want? As I originally said, it takes religions longer to change. (Just look at Islam...)
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It is just that kind of crap that makes people wonder if these boards are still viable. If people's religion is constantly attacked, how long do you think most of them will stick around? If gays were consistently attacked on these boards how long would YOU stick around? Pretty soon you will be preaching to the small minority that sees things just the way you see them. You won't have any arguments, but you also won't be able to sway any opinions. Win the battle, lose the war.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>If people's religion is constantly attacked,<< Dude. What part of "systematic coverup of raping children" don't you understand? I'm not mocking belief in God. I'm not mocking Conclave (I actually find beauty in religious ceremony). I'm not mocking the Eucharist or confession or the Bible. I am pointing out that a church that claims to be the institution of Christ on earth ought to have higher standards than child abuse. It's not unreasonable to challenge that. Playing the hurt feelings card when a church sanctions child abuse doesn't fly.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip And what percentage of Catholics support that? It is a cheap shot and one consistently used against minorities. Does the existence of NAMBLA mean that all gays support child rape??
Originally Posted By ecdc It is not a cheap shot to ask members of an institution why they continue to support and perhaps fund the institution after it's learned that said institution has *as a matter of policy for decades* covered up child sexual abuse. Furthermore, I find it hard to believe you'd call it a "cheap shot" if we were talking about a secular institution. Where is the bar? Does anything go? At what point do people stand up and say, "Enough, I can't be associated with this." Those are fair, reasonable questions to ask that do not constitute "cheap shots" or "attacks." You seem to expect anything branded as religion to be immune from criticism. They are not immune.
Originally Posted By ecdc I also hope it goes without saying, pedophilia has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality, so linking the two is absurd.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I also hope it goes without saying, pedophilia has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality, so linking the two is absurd. << NAMBLA, by definition, does exactly that. Which is RoadTrip's point. The Catholic denomination is VASTLY different from a business, school or sports team. You don't just drop something that has been fundamental to your and your family's identity and spiritual life for generations, just because some church leaders somewhere else committed heinous acts. You fix from within. >>You seem to expect anything branded as religion to be immune from criticism. << Aaaaaand now you're inventing a new strawman opinion for RoadTrip, one that he obviously does not endorse.
Originally Posted By dagobert Despite being Roman Catholic, I couldn't care less who became the new Pope. I guess the Church gave up on Europe, because nearly nobody here lives the church's way and neither do I. However I find it fascinating with all those rites and rituals and long history. But it's time for the church to arrive in the 21st century. I few days ago there was a good documentary on NG about JFK being the first Catholic president of the USA and the people's concern about that. And nowadays the US have established a tight relationship with the Vatican. The US is very interesting when it comes to religion. When I lived there, I had the impression that it is much more important in everyday's life than over here. Here it's something private while in the US people meet in churches and do stuff together.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The Catholic denomination is VASTLY different from a business, school or sports team*** Just to play devil's advocate here (that's a Catholic thing, right? lol), would you say the same about any and all religions? ***You don't just drop something that has been fundamental to your and your family's identity and spiritual life for generations*** It certainly isn't easy, particularly when it goes to the core of your culture and heritage. And it doesn't hurt that the fear of damnation for quitting is a very real one for many Catholics. ***just because some church leaders somewhere else committed heinous acts*** Well, no. Because that really IS a reason to dig down deep and decide whether you should, in a real moral sense, continue to support an institution that is so systemically, perhaps incorrigibly, corrupt. ***You fix from within*** That might work if it were a democracy. The sheer volume of denominations (thousands, at least) who have splintered off over the millennia sort of shows that it will never be fixed from within, though. Just sayin.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The Catholic denomination is VASTLY different from a business, school or sports team*** Just to play devil's advocate here (that's a Catholic thing, right? lol), would you say the same about any and all religions? ***You don't just drop something that has been fundamental to your and your family's identity and spiritual life for generations*** It certainly isn't easy, particularly when it goes to the core of your culture and heritage. And it doesn't hurt that the fear of damnation for quitting is a very real one for many Catholics. ***just because some church leaders somewhere else committed heinous acts*** Well, no. Because that really IS a reason to dig down deep and decide whether you should, in a real moral sense, continue to support an institution that is so systemically, perhaps incorrigibly, corrupt. ***You fix from within*** That might work if it were a democracy. The sheer volume of denominations (thousands, at least) who have splintered off over the millennia sort of shows that it will never be fixed from within, though. Just sayin.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ">>Note that's not Jesus speaking. It's Paul. It's very much his personal opinion; he doesn't even claim it for Jesus.<< "That was awesome - "It's very much his personal opinion." Like so much of that book. Thanks! " Well then, how in the world can you hold the opinion that any non-fundamentalist Christian, which is to say the majority of the world Christians, would have to believe every word of it? That itself is black-and-white thinking.
