Originally Posted By Goofyernmost While Catholics do hold to the teachings of the Church, we put very little emphasis on the Bible. The leaders perhaps use it to determine moral stands, but that only worked continuously when the members were mostly illiterate and unable to make such decisions on their own. To blanketly show disbelief that people can continue to support a church that had instances of bad priests and equally bad leadership are losing sight that the church is more then those incidents. Catholics are not supporting those evil actions, they are trying to put it behind them and continue to support the deeds that the church also participates in. We don't look at every American and say, how could we support a nation that got 50,000 young people killed in a useless war in Vietnam. We don't, we support the things that are potentially good with the nation. We don't forget, I hope, that it happened, but we don't base our entire belief system on a very small group of incredibly immoral people. We, as a group, did not commit those atrocities, we didn't then and we don't now. We are watching closely to see if that problem has been fixed. If it hasn't then we will, I assure you leave in torrents. I had already left but long before this stuff happened. Mine was more of a fundamental disagreement with the teachings, not the actions of a few. I'm glad that I didn't have to make that decision based on that incident and I am not sure how I would have reacted had I had to make that decision. But I do think that I understand why people are still standing in support of the institution that they grew up with as well as probably several generations of their family and their roots.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>NAMBLA, by definition, does exactly that. Which is RoadTrip's point.<< All gay people are not members of NAMBLA. All Catholics are, you know, Catholic. No one has argued that all Catholics support child abuse, BTW. All that has been said (by me, anyway) is that it's not unreasonable to ask where the bar is? Catholics (presumably) believe that their church represents Christ on earth. Their church has also covered up abuse. Pointing out the incongruity, asking questions, challenging that notion...those are "cheap shots?" Speaking of straw men. And isn't bringing up NAMBLA at this point akin to breaking Godwin's Law? I mean, NAMBLA? Seriously? >>You don't just drop something that has been fundamental to your and your family's identity and spiritual life for generations, just because some church leaders somewhere else committed heinous acts. You fix from within.<< Some of us have done just that. And I'm all for fixing from within. A handful of priests have taken a very vocal stand, even testifying against the church in court. Bravo. A great many more, including lay members, shake their heads, say "isn't that awful," then do nothing and expect it to just sort of stop. It hasn't. >>Aaaaaand now you're inventing a new strawman opinion for RoadTrip, one that he obviously does not endorse.<< No, I haven't. He's welcome to refute it, but I still fail to see how pointing out that the Catholic Church had a policy of covering up child sexual abuse is "a cheap shot" "this kind of crap" and an "attack." Labeling reality as those things definitely implies that the criticism shouldn't be raised. And if its not okay to criticize an organization for raping children, hey, maybe we can get a list of what is okay to criticize it for?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***We are watching closely to see if that problem has been fixed. If it hasn't then we will, I assure you leave in torrents*** I don't see it. Unless this is another issue of "Catholic time", I wonder just how many decades of obfuscation, denial, stonewalling and blaming the victims are allowed before the flock stops giving them a pass to "get over the shock" first. Wasn't it just a short while ago that one of those redshirts referred to the atrocities as "petty gossip" unsuited for the rarified air of the Vatican? What was that like, two months ago? And we all know how often they've blamed the whole damned thing (the coverups too...'cause why not, right?) on "those evil gays". Yeah...likely to change real quick. Uh huh. Oh, and the new pope says gays adopting orphans is "the work of the father of lies". Real progress, that. <---rolls eyes
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Wouldn't it have been cool if he picked his name today, and he be named "Pius"? (3/14)
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Just to play devil's advocate here (that's a Catholic thing, right? lol), would you say the same about any and all religions? << Get behind me, Satan! Oh, it's Mr X. Sorry. ;-) Get behind me, Mr X! The answer is "no". Understand I'm looking at this from a long time member's perspective. Such a member would have gotten a lot of good out of his fellowship with his church, and is not going to just give it up due to the actions of a (relatively) few people, even though they be in positions of leadership. To restate: I'm not defending Catholicism, just the church members who continue to participate in it and donate to it. Goofyernmost says it better than I do in post 61. >>an institution that is so systemically, perhaps incorrigibly, corrupt.<< Assumes facts not in evidence. Don't forget about our old friend "media bias". Sensational stories get an undue amount of airtime. >>That might work if it were a democracy. The sheer volume of denominations (thousands, at least) who have splintered off over the millennia sort of shows that it will never be fixed from within, though.<< Nuh-uh. There's been a lot of "fixing" of the Catholic Church from within. Granted, it has not moved fast enough for some, most notably that Martin Luther guy (who, by the way, was also trying to get reform to happen from within - he didn't leave, he was pushed out). But this is not your great-grandpa's Catholic Church. Get one reform-minded pope in there (and there have been several) and all heck breaks loose. Besides, you're undercutting your own argument here. Let's say your local church - the one that your family has been a member of for the last 250 years - disagrees with the Vatican and is of a mind to splinter off. Do you stop supporting it until it does it? Kind of counterproductive, that. Until you drill down to the community level, you can't get a good understanding of why people continue to support church denominations that they disagree with. It's not about the guy in Rome with the funny hat. >>All gay people are not members of NAMBLA. All Catholics are, you know, Catholic.<< The point to being Catholic: Fellowship, worship, salvation, doing good deeds, etc. The point to NAMBLA: gay men rogering boys. If you insist on taking a small subgroup of pervert Catholic priests and accusing every Catholic of their crimes, then it's just as appropriate to take a small subgroup of gay males (i.e. NAMBLA) and accuse every gay male of their crimes. In other words, it's not. >>And isn't bringing up NAMBLA at this point akin to breaking Godwin's Law?<< Well, let's see ... What specific activity are you accusing all Catholics of supporting again? >>A great many more, including lay members, shake their heads, say "isn't that awful," then do nothing and expect it to just sort of stop.<< Again, assumes facts not in evidence. >>And if its not okay to criticize an organization for raping children, hey, maybe we can get a list of what is okay to criticize it for?<< How about we criticize those individuals inside the organization who are actually guilty, rather than throwing out the the entire dang extended family with the bathwater? >>Wouldn't it have been cool if he picked his name today, and he be named "Pius"?<< I would've gone with "Prius" myself. More modern and progressive and all that.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The church is changing. It does recognize there was a problem with how the abuse cases were handled and is taking steps to correct it. It will take time for the church to change at the top. The Cardinals are a bunch of OLD men. But over time they will be replaced with Cardinals who today are young or middle-aged men and the thinking of the church will change. Just as younger people in America are much more accepting of gay marriage... to the point where a majority of Americans now support it. In most areas the Catholic Church is much more liberal than any other church I have experienced. It is very outspoken on issues of peace and social justice. The last church where I was active (Pax Christie in Minnesota) was VERY liberal. The priest even jokingly referred to it as "that almost Catholic Church". He made it clear that he supported priesthood for women and equal rights for gay people. Every week during mass we prayed for God's support of gay lesbian and trans-gender people. Not that they be "cured" or forgiven... that they be SUPPORTED. When we joined the parish my late wife and I talked to the priest about our situation. My prior marriage had been annulled but her's had not. She had no desire to get an annulment... her previous marriage had produced a son and she was not going to say it was never really a marriage. The priest said that she could make a "decision of conscience" and that if she was comfortable receiving communion, he was comfortable with giving it to her. I haven't regularly attended church since moving to Missouri. I just haven't found one down here in Conservativeville that I'm comfortable with. But I am still Catholic and probably always will be. That's just the way is.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Well, let's see ... What specific activity are you accusing all Catholics of supporting again?<< I have no idea what you think I'm accusing them of. Point of fact, I haven't accused them of anything. I've asked where the bar is for accountability. I've pointed out (factually) that we now know the church had, as a matter of official policy, the practice of covering up abuse. Anything else is a misreading of what I said. Nowhere have I accused Catholics of liking or supporting abuse (I've specifically said otherwise...curiously, you did not cut and paste that part).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I haven't accused them of anything. I've asked where the bar is for accountability. I've pointed out (factually) that we now know the church had, as a matter of official policy, the practice of covering up abuse.>> It wasn't that long ago that every police department in the nation viewed physical and sexual abuse of spouses and children as a "family matter" and did little or nothing to step in. That's not justifying either their actions or that of the Catholic hierarchy. It just points out that things DO change over time, and it generally takes longer for religious organizations to change than governmental ones.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>While Catholics do hold to the teachings of the Church, we put very little emphasis on the Bible.<< Yet, every time Catholics want to have a go at gay people - they throw it up to us! They call it their sole piece of "proof" that God/Jesus exists, and you are telling me they don't put emphasis on it. The very basis for Catholicism/Christianity. In the words of Spock - fascinating! So a "Catholic" is different than a "Bible-Believer" or "Bible-Follower". I picture this "private club" with a smorgasbord - Just pick and choose Parts you don't believe .. throw over there ... what you decide you'd like to believe .. put on the plate. Lovely If people in those churches can question some parts ..... they should question the whole lot. That's the logical thing to do, right?!
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt The caption on this picture says it all. <a href="http://www.facebook.com/georgehtakei/posts/348550148588742" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/george...48588742</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Protestants put far more emphasis on the Bible than Catholics do. Sure, the religion is based on the Bible, but Church teachings and traditions are considered far more important. Purgatory and celibacy of priests were never mentioned in the Bible but are big deals in the Catholic Church.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Church teachings and traditions<< Translation: Made things up, as they went along. And now call them - "the word of God".
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Which is pretty much how a good portion of the Bible was put together...
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Yet, every time Catholics want to have a go at gay people - they throw it up to us! They call it their sole piece of "proof" that God/Jesus exists, and you are telling me they don't put emphasis on it. The very basis for Catholicism/Christianity. In the words of Spock - fascinating! So a "Catholic" is different than a "Bible-Believer" or "Bible-Follower". I picture this "private club" with a smorgasbord - Just pick and choose Parts you don't believe .. throw over there ... what you decide you'd like to believe .. put on the plate. Lovely If people in those churches can question some parts ..... they should question the whole lot. That's the logical thing to do, right?! If you know any religion that doesn't do that please let me know. I do know this, every Catholic I have ever known, and I've known a lot of them, do not quote the bible on that and the ones out there that do, have never read it and are just going by what some talking head has told them. Again, I'm asking that you not lump Catholics in one group. There are extremists in every religion and every political grouping in existence. I would be willing to bet that one never gets that reaction from Catholics in the same degree that, for example, the Baptists might spew it forth. And not all Baptists are like that either.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 oc dean. I'm Catholic have you ever heard me say anything that was demeaning to you. That questioned how you were born. Have you ever heard anything like that
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Parts you don't believe .. throw over there ... what you decide you'd like to believe .. put on the plate.<< Unlike ..... Uh, what is this unlike again?
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 See it's instead of liking something you're unliking it right away. Not to be confused with liking something then thinking about it saying I really don't like it so now I'm going to unlike it.* *That reads better if you picture one of the guys from Spinal Tap saying it.
Originally Posted By oc_dean I hadn't forgotten about this topic .. and fully intended to make a response to this .. and just get it over with: >>oc dean. I'm Catholic have you ever heard me say anything that was demeaning to you. That questioned how you were born. Have you ever heard anything like that<< DDMAN26 .. forgive me for several of my posts ... I'll admit I was "trolling" a bit. But I couldn't help myself because it just makes me crazy how all religion gripes me .. because .. really .. there's not a shred of proof to back any of them up. And for centuries to come, it will continue to foster bigots. That just infuriates me! I'd rather see humanity would grow out of it's superstitious ways, and stop quoting passages out of books, and get with reality. Goodnight, and hope we find ground on things we can agree with.
Originally Posted By ecdc This new Pope seems determined to make me like him, and danged if it isn't working. In a few short months, he's broken tradition by washing the feet of a Muslim woman, he's decried poverty and blamed it on corporate greed, he's said that if people starve to death, it's nothing, but if a bank fails, it is a tragedy, and just recently he said atheists are good people if they do good works, and will be redeemed as well. It takes an awful lot to penetrate my cynicism, but this guy is well on his way.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf "...there's not a shred of proof to back any of them up." Well, that depends. I agree there isn't any proof of divinity associated with religions. And not much proof that the holy books contain historical facts (most were not intended to by the way but don't tell the "young-earthers" that!) But there is LOT of proof that supports the humanistic origins of religion and, in my opinion, that warrants some attention. Not all that has come from religious movements is bad (though admittedly there is plenty that is) - in fact there is a lot that is good and has helped the Western world develop into what it is today.
