Originally Posted By Beast77 Wow, What a frustrating thread. My wife and I took our older daughter to WDW at 1 week old. Again at 6 months, again at 1 year, again at 1.5 years, and we are going for her 2nd bday next month. We have a new daughter that will be 4 months old and are taking her as well. We take some precautions, but for the most part, we just take it easy with the girls with us. It is great family time. It is most troubling to hear someone who is a mandatory reporter find a way to connect a trip to Disney World with child abuse. I teach at a university. One of the classes I teach prepares people for laws regarding mandatory reporting and proper application of the law’s intent. Many of them are students working on advanced degrees (Masters/PhD) in clinical/counseling psychology, education etc. Tom, I have to say, I warn students about people with your approach to defining child abuse. It twists things in such a way that REAL abuse gets lost among all of the noise from people who want to create their own definition of child abuse. I have seen people claim that providing ice cream during the day is criminal neglect, that allowing a young child to play sports is abuse…now I will have to tell my next class about trips to Disney World= Child Abuse. The response will be a mixture of chuckles and shaking heads…. But it will get my point across. Thank you.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy <that's fine then, as long as you don't then bring them to : the day care / grocery store / shopping mall / aunt martha's for Christmas / church etc.etc etc- as they are no better than the park.> Aunt Martha's house doesn't have NEARLY as much traffic at Christmas as people say.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Beast, don't be troubled, I believe you are dead on and it comes down to parental responsibility in raising their kids using common sense in all things. Ones kid is not going to avoid exposure to germs unless they are put in a bubble in an isolation chamber. The are not going to be sunburned, overheated, too cold etc unless the parents allows that to happen. Not all parents are idiots and we know how to take care of kids. You don't try and sneak them on Dinosaur or Space Mountain, nor do you place them in front of loud speakers at a show...but to try and paint a picture of having one's yong children with you are WDW, or the Zoo, or the grocery store etc as child abuse in just crazy and PC madness run amuk. I am not saying that a family should 'plan' to take their very young children to WDW because somehow the kids needit, but also if you know ahead of time this is a family time vacation, and your schedule will be dictated by your young child - ( and many times this includes taking other siblings)-don't avoid going for all others involved.
Originally Posted By gaston lives I didnt' mean to come across as rude, KT, I just wanted to say that it's the choice/call of the parents involved,a dn that Disney is a place for families, not adults like TDLFAN says.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Not to turn this into a World Events topic. But now I'm going to have to defend myself. <<Tom, I have to say, I warn students about people with your approach to defining child abuse. It twists things in such a way that REAL abuse gets lost among all of the noise from people who want to create their own definition of child abuse.>> Federal, State and Local child abuse and neglect laws are not open to personal interpretation. The law states that ALL mandatory reports MUST REPORT. The law does not provide for mandatory reporter to make a value judgement as to what may or may not constitute child abuse and neglect. Mandatory reports are leagally obglitated to report. Only the Federal, State and local government and their "agents" are allowed to made the assessment as to where or not child abuse or neglect has occurred. Not individual citizens, or professionals. I have worked as a child abuse investigator in two seperate states. One state, Rhode Island has Draconian mandatory reporter laws. In Rhode Island EVERY CITIZEN is legally obligated to report child abuse and neglect. Thats EVERONE. As a child abuse investigator I have successfully prosceuted many individuals who have not only committed child abuse and neglect but have also proscuted professional who failed to report. Yes you can be arrested, charged and go to jail for not reporting. Now back to WDW. I have an issue with anyone who is bringing a fragil life form and yes a 3 month old is a fragil life from into a MAJOR amusement park. In the case that I have spoken about above. I saw someone with a 3 month old ( or younger ) in que for The Great Movie Ride. I think that is highly inappropriate! Probably doesnt' qualify as child abuse.. but neglect.... ummmm not so sure about that. Oh I would pay money to be standing before a judge and say your honor " the accussed brought their newborn onto rides and attractions at one of the most visited amusement parks in the world. Not to mention the fact that the family in question was South American and probably flown to Orlando. Keep in mind that Judges and Jurys CAN make personal interpatations as to what does and does not constitute child abuse and neglect. And in Georgia our judges are UNTRA conservative! They arrest and lock up married people who are having affairs ( you want to keep in mind that it is a crime to be engaging in relations outside your marriage ). Yes in RI and GA.. our judges take the laws very seriously. And yes I have had arrested police officers, fireman. I even went onto a Navy base in Newport RI and had an Officer arrested. I took my job very seriously. And I have seen some awful awful child abuse and neglect case. I testified in one case and when I got done testifying EVERYONE in the court room was crying, the judge, the deputy, all attorneys and even the Stenogropher. I could tell you stories that you wouldn't believe. All true...
Originally Posted By danyoung >Any time we would go into anything where the child could upset others if they really got into it, we would stay near the exit, end of the aisle and leave if we had too ...< This is EXACTLY the right way to do it. Sadly, way too few parents do this, and the rest of us have to suffer through a showing of Philharmagic with a screaming child right in the middle of the theater. I personally would not bring an infant into any Disney park, as I think it would just be a HUGE hassle. But I can sure understand how some parents really enjoy it, especially with other small children who are still getting a kick out of the baby. But the most important thing is to take care of the baby. I just about cry when I see a trailer park mom schlepping their infant around in a stroller in July, with the child sunburned and sweat matted and just looking miserable. Very very uncool!
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Federal, State and Local child abuse and neglect laws are not open to personal interpretation. The law states that ALL mandatory reports MUST REPORT. The law does not provide for mandatory reporter to make a value judgement as to what may or may not constitute child abuse and neglect.<<< Wouldn't you have to have made a judgment in order to know that you should report it? What has been said is that child abuse is a much narrower field than what has been mentioned here. Just because you might think it abuse does not make it so. I think it is pretty easy to define actual child abuse...loud noise exposure at a theme park is not one of them, in fact, it is almost laughable and without a doubt it destroys the credibility of the accuser. It has to be based on a very limited knowledge on what makes people tick. Political Correctness is the same, if not worse, then the McCarthyism Red Scare. It is based on a warped vision of what is right or wrong and a personal agenda to have the world be an image held by the individual doing the accusing. Not a good thing.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip << I saw someone with a 3 month old ( or younger ) in que for The Great Movie Ride. I think that is highly inappropriate! Probably doesnt' qualify as child abuse.. but neglect.... ummmm not so sure about that.>> Sorry Tom, but that is WAY OVER THE EDGE to me. We've sometimes agreed on these boards and sometimes disagreed; but based on statements you’ve made in this thread I would suspect that you need as much counseling as those you report. Sorry... JMHO... (Where’s Cape Cod Joe when you need him??) ;-)
Originally Posted By ourmagicears I am at a loss for words over this thread. We are currently in a fost/adopt situation with a unborn child (the last one fell through). We have presented our trip to our social workers, the judge has our itinerary and has okayed it. This baby may be three weeks old or even just a few days old. NO ONE has blinked an eyelash!!!! IF she has any serious health problems, she will be with my mother and father. But if she is born completely healthy, she will be coming with us. She will not be riding rides, or be parked by a speaker, have strangers wonder around with her, she will never be placed in any danger. We already have our plans for all possible outcomes. Sooooo Kennesaw Tom if you need to report us now on child neglect or endangerment to keep us from taking our 9 and 5 year old and possibly a VERY newborn to WDW in March, I will give you the California State Adoption Agencies number. I am sure they would love to educate you in what a loving and caring home environment is. People like you, give social service workers bad reps..... Also side note, my aunt who is a Social Service Administrator in a very large metropolitan area, roared when she heard this....
Originally Posted By Beast77 OK Tom, you are a self professed child abuse mandatory reporter who investigates abuse and failure to report…. So, did you turn in all the families with infants at the parks? Or did you yourself commit the crime of failure to report abuse? Or are you wishy washy on what you consider abuse, thus unable to recognize it reliably? Or did you make a value judgment that you just said you are forbidden from doing? Hmm, either way looks like you gotta turn yourself in... Reporters must have cause to report, otherwise the system gets so backlogged with frivolous complaints that the kids who need it get lost in the system. You can’t simply report everyone that parents different than you. There are distinct guidelines for what is considered abuse. Defend yourself as much as you want, anyone with a grain of common sense can see that you would NOT be able to successfully link Disney vacations to child abuse. Also… You said “Not to mention the fact that the family in question was South American and probably flown to Orlandoâ€â€¦. Umm what does national origin have to do with child abuse? I would bet that most of the families at Disney World arrived via airplane.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I've taken my newborns (over 3 months) and if I have more children I'll take them too. If someone chooses to report me for child abuse then that is a conversation I look forward to having with the Department of Children and Families. Tom, it's not like I'm taking the kids on Big Thunder for crying out loud. And, they have no more chance getting sick at Disney than they do getting sick in child care. I'm over everyone else trying to be my childrens' parents.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey I wouldn't go so far to say that bringing a newborn to WDW is child abuse, but I don't think it's very fair to such a small baby. I would NEVER bring a week old to WDW - NEVER. Comparing taking a child to a grocery store to taking a child to WDW is like comparing apples to oranges. I think taking a one week old to WDW is insane. I wouldn't call it child abuse, but I think that's just crazy. Babies that little should be at home.
Originally Posted By ourmagicears Maybe it sounds crazy to take a small baby to WDW. But try being the family who has been waiting for an infant for two years. In the last 6 months w have been disipointed four times. So to keep sanity, we are not changing our plans. Our two children are preciouse to us. I would love for you to be here to see their faces when we have to tell them we are not going to WDW because we are getting a baby. This baby will have three adults with her. My mother-in-law will be with us and we will be spending a good amount of time at the resort hotel and pool. I do plan on having the infant in the parks as little as possiable. But still, an infant can be protected from germs in a park just as much as shopping in a store. Fresh air, beautiful scenary.
Originally Posted By gaston lives I think KT is just stating his responsibilities, which is fine and admirable. I just think that family services would love to know that the child in question was in a loving family environment who was able to take said children on any type of vacation, rathe than have them being raised in a meth lab, for example. You saw this mother in line, but did you see her go on the ride? Maybe she stayed off of the ride, but was in line with her family. We started going down in winter vs. summer because of the heat. Last year my 2.5 year old got sick becuase of the heat. Now he's 3.5, and the winter time was perfect weather. Was I negligent becuase I went down in the summer before? No. I would be negligent if I left the child at home and went to WDW on my own just for fun.
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Originally Posted By Labuda I gotta admit, I do NOT see how queueing up for a ride with a 3-month old could be construed as neglect. Can you maybe help us understand where you're coming from in that regard, Tom? As for the buses, I think you may have gone a bit overboard in saying being near a bus is child abuse, though, my friend. Unless you're holding the kid near where the fumes come out, I honestly don't see how this could be abuse...
Originally Posted By Lisann22 I feel like I'm reading the rules my old country great grandmas had for babies...do not leave the house with your baby until they are 8 months old. Aye yi yi, this is WAY over the top.
Originally Posted By dsnyredhead If your newborn has left the hospital, then they have been outdoors and exposed to the elements. My son went when he was about six weeks old. I know someone who took her first two kids at 19 days old. Anyone who would have reported us would have gotten an earful. That is way over the top.
