Originally Posted By vbdad55 Okay in fairness I have reviewed and although insinuated, never said irresponsible -- the words were Crazy and insane..I stand corrected. I am done with this thread... My opinion and those of some others here is that most times parents know what is best for their families ( and using hard core child abuse examples not withstanding) - and act in their best interest. The vast majority do an excellent job, and most parents do adjust to their children - Someone who brings a very young child to WDW, or the museum, or store or wherever, when they plan around it, make the right adjustments and treat the baby, well, like a baby are NOT selfish, not doing anything wrong or to endanger the child. If someone wants to stay home and do nothing but take care of their new baby, that is their perogative also and that is fine and nothing is wrong their either. They get to decide how the family adjusts to a new child in the mix. Anyone who tells either parent example they are wrong in any way without any other facts is out of line IMHO !
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey I'm sorry for offending anyone, I'm sorry anyone took my posts the wrong way, I'm sorry for calling anyone selfish. I'm sorry for having an opinion in general, and I'll never bother anyone on these boards again.
Originally Posted By Beast77 Nikki Yes, I did take a one week old. I would also probably not do it again. But NOT because I think it is selfish. I wouldn't do it because I would like my wife to have a chance to get nursing better established. It all worked out, but it was a challenge getting established while on vacation. However, it is a personal choice that a parent can make. Given the HUGE amount of variation in circumstances, there is just NO way anyone can judge such a choice, there is NO way to have a complete picture of the life background. Our trip when my daughter was 1 week was unavoidable... It could not be missed, and could not be delayed. We had not choice but to go during that week. I had obligations at WDW that week, and as my children are learning about daddy, when I say I am going to do something, I DO IT. Furthermore, I do not feel guilty at all. There was nothing wrong with having done it. My daughter is now 2 and no worse for wear... Just consider that the lives of others are not like yours. We are not all the same people. As I stated in a previous post, I teach at a university. I am an anthropologist. While I have done a lot of general projects, my specialty is cross-cultural social constructs (things like how do we define child abuse vs. the UK vs. Uganda vs. Chile...ect) and Medical Anthropology (pluralistic medical systems, public health...)... What I am getting at is that I have seen a lot of stuff. Stuff that makes a trip to Disney World look like a day in an incubator. The kids turn out OK! Children adapt to their paranting and environment. If a child is loved, fed, and sheltered... with a few exceptions that are the unfortunate product of nature, they will be FINE! No need to judge, no need to accuse of being selfish. Again, according to my upbringing (my mom was one of 18 children) life rolls on when a new child joins the family. Nothing changes except that there is one more stroller, one more package of diapers...ect. Guess what, all of her siblings turned out fine as well. Thus I am parenting according to my upbringing. And I am OK with that. However, if when a child is born, a parent literally drops their life, and changes EVERYTHING... that is OK too. If it works for them, and that is what they know... well, then that is the best thing for them.
Originally Posted By -em So the question begs that apparently Im a horrible selfish parent for taking my newborn to DL, would the view have changed any when I said that I took her because it was my older daughters wish for finishing the first round of chemo. Didn't think so. Least I never put my kids in tall shoes and tried to get past the height check stations when they were under the requirement... Which IMO is just as bad if not worse than taking a newborn
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I'm going to answer this in two statements. <<Georgia no longer associates extra-marital affairs with criminal acts. In 2003 the Georgia Supreme Court struck down Georgia's anti-sodomy/anti-fornication laws (that were only enforced punitively when the police couldn't make anything else stick) indicating that the ONLY way it could be prosecuted is if it is either non-concentual, for money, for between an adult and a minor.>> I think what your referring to here RangerPooh is infact Georgia's antisodomy laws. Yes the anti-sodomy laws were struck down ( as well as they should have ). However, Adultery is still a crime in Georgia as well as in many other states.
Originally Posted By RangerPooh Georgias anti-sodomy laws were struck down in 1998, the anti-fornication laws were struck down in 2003. It found that the court has NO jurisdiction over sex acts between consenting adults regardless of marital or extra-marital. *** From GA Supreme Court Briefs**** The Supreme Court of Georgia has invalidated a state anti-fornication law, holding that "the government may not reach into the bedroom of a private residence and criminalize the private, noncommercial, consensual sexual acts of two persons consenting to those acts." The 170-year-old Georgia law provides that sex between two unmarried people constitutes a misdemeanor and could be fined at least $1000. The Court recognized that the "right to privacy has a value so essential to individual liberty in our society that its infringement merits careful scrutiny by the courts." The Court also rejected the prosecution's argument that an individual has no right to privacy when they are a guest in another's home : " We reject the broad assertion that people abandon their constitutional guarantee to privacy when they enter as guests into the private home of another. An invitation to enter another person's private home does not include an implicit condition that the guest surrender his constitutional right to privacy." The decision extends a 1998 ruling where the same court invalidated a state anti-sodomy law that was previously upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. The U.S. Supreme Court will revisit the issue of anti-sodomy laws this term in Lawrence and Garner v. Texas. That case will test sodomy laws in 13 states. In re: J. M., a child, Case No. S02A1432, Supreme Court of Georgia, January 13, 2003: <a href="http://www2.state.ga.us/Courts/Supreme/pdf/s02a1432.pdf" target="_blank">http://www2.state.ga.us/Courts /Supreme/pdf/s02a1432.pdf</a>
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<1) Physical injury or death inflicted upon a child by a parent or caretaker thereof by other than accidental means; provided, however, physical forms of discipline may be used as long as there is no physical injury to the child; 2) Neglect or exploitation of a child by a parent or caretaker thereof. Neglect is defined in terms of deprivation of adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care. 3) Sexual abuse of a child; or 4) Sexual exploitation of a child. So, according to your own state laws... where does Disney World Fit?>> As you have stated placing a child in an environment with the child "can" sustain harm does constitute child abuse. What I am referring to in terms of WDW is the enviornment as well as the noise in those areas. WDW has areas that are very loud, venues that are Extremely loud and rides/ attractions that also have loud noises in them. When I was at EPCOT back in early December I was walking past the Candelight Prosessional and I thought that was too loud. Kennesaw Joe and I could not even communicate with each other and we were shouting into each others ears. On this recent trip I received a phone call on my cell phone from a buddy up in Philly while I was in the Virgin Record store in Downtown Disney. The music was so loud in the store and out in front of the store that I had to go to the patio area inback of Bongo's just to talk with him. And quite frankly I find Universe of Energy to be too loud for me, never mind a newborn with fragil eardrums. So yes just as in Georgia it is child abuse to bring an infant to a rock concert. I think its child abuse to subject a newborn to some of the loud environments in and around WDW. As for the diesel buses. Here is an article about fuel cell buses in Florida. <a href="http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2002news/quietbus.htm" target="_blank">http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2002ne ws/quietbus.htm</a> <<it produced 73 decibels compared to 82, 84 and 87 decibels for the diesel buses. A 50-decibel noise is just audible while 90 decibels is considered very loud. So the gap between 73 and 82 decibels is “huge,â€>> If 90 decibels are considered to be very loud and diesel buses produce noise levels between 82 to 87 decibels than I think thats not healthy to be subjecting fragil newborns to those noise levels.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Seeing as how a significant number of newborns in this country go home with substance abusing teenaged mothers to roach infested tenements in violent neighborhoods,>> Maybe in your state but not in Rhode Island or Georgia. I would have to say that the most awful experience I have EVERY had to encouter was having to sit down and have a nurse go over parenting skills with a newborn. Because I was taking the newborn into state custody and the hospital is obligated to go over this information with the person the infant is being discharged to. And I have had to do that plenty of times.
Originally Posted By RangerPooh I hit post too fast... While it is true that there is a law on the books making it a misdemeanor to engage in adultery in Georgia, it is no longer prosecutable after the 2003 Georgia Supreme Court findings on fornication. It is now tried as a civil offence only. Anyway... Keep stretching KT... this is fun.. Man, this topic was just winding down...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "So yes just as in Georgia it is child abuse to bring an infant to a rock concert. I think its child abuse to subject a newborn to some of the loud environments in and around WDW." My brothers and I all grew up around concerts (having a dad that is a pro musician ensures that). We had ear plugs when really young. Which is worse, being in the concert environment or being neglected and never seeing dad. I would argue the latter. And my little ones loved the Candlelight!
Originally Posted By RangerPooh KT-->" I think its child abuse to subject a newborn to some of the loud environments in and around WDW." OK, so did you report them? Or did you fail to report? Get some help. I am done. I will no longer post on this tread.
Originally Posted By ourmagicears <<As far as disappointing your other children in regards to a planned WDW vacation because an adoption came through, I think the kids will get over the disappointment. We took my nephew to WDW with us for the first time last year. We don't want him to miss school again this year, and we can't afford to take him, so we have to leave him home. He's disappointed, but he'll get over it.>> So Nikki, try standing in my shoes...My daughter is 9, my son is 5 and for the last year we have been talking about WDW non stop. We as a family also agreed two years ago, to adopt a baby girl. Through a very long process we have traveled. Three disappointments in 6 months, all of which our children have been aware of. We are open with this process and education with our children. The last baby was actually promised to us. Our children got excited, counted down sleep nights, got the babies room ready and picked out a name. We were told less than 48 hours before we were going to pick her up, that she would need to stay in the county se was born in, due to political agenda of the social service department. We had no control!!! Our children were devastated...but yet I could turn around and remind them of WDW. SOOOOOOOO.........WHAT IF THIS HAPPENS AGAIN???? The baby is born less than a week before we leave. We should cancel our trip! A NO! The birth mother can take one look at her and wants to keep her (she has a right to do so). I WILL NOT DISIPOINT my beautiful children again. I will bring a new born to WDW if it turns out to be this way. We will love her and CARE for her as we have done for our son and daughter. We are going during Spring break, so our children will not miss school. This has cost us a great deal of $$$$. But thinking of my children first, we could care less about the $$$$. Their education comes first. They have Dr. appointments with in a month before we go, to take care of any unknown illnesses. They have had flu shots, take airborne and vitamins daily. Swim three days a week on a swim team and have 6 small meals daily. But, to tell them they are second best to a baby and their dreams are to be placed on hold, sorry not going to happen!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<We had ear plugs when really young.>> They don't make ear plugs for newborns
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Anyway... Keep stretching KT... this is fun..>> Personal attacks much RangerPooh?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<OK, so did you report them? Or did you fail to report? Get some help.>> More personal attacks.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Tom, I have to say, I warn students about people with your approach to defining child abuse. It twists things in such a way that REAL abuse gets lost among all of the noise from people who want to create their own definition of child abuse.>> I was trained by two differnet state governments. Your statement is so out of line.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want this guy responsible for filing child abuse reports in my community!!>> More personal attacks.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<I'm trying hard to understand why anyone in your position Tom would think that making comments like you have in this thread can help in any way for the REAL fight against child abuse? All you have succeed in doing is deflecting people's thoughts from serious crimes on children, to a minor arguement about loving parents taking their children on a vacation! Good one!>>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "They don't make ear plugs for newborns" No,but there is cotton balls
