Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>well Goofy, you're certainly entitled to your opinion but the cheering crowds in each showing of EO really disagree with you<<< Oh, how well I realize that and that is what totally baffles me. What does that wacko, oops, sorry, Jacko have to do to make people realize that he was out of his mind. He had everything available to him to try and help himself, instead he just made it worse. What bothers me more than his behavior is that of the public. The worship of this guy boggles my mind. The willingness to fork over large amounts of money to be a part of that insanity, to a third party none the less, is without explanation that I can relate to at all. Well, go ahead and worship this sick god image, I will send my money to "Make a Wish" where it can do some good, hopefully. I know it sounds like I am overly passionate about this, and maybe I am, but it really bothers me that Disney, of all places, would justify his warped existence by putting him in a place of honor and all for money. And we buy into it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***What does that wacko, oops, sorry, Jacko have to do to make people realize that he was out of his mind.*** I'd say he did his best to make it perfectly clear. ***He had everything available to him to try and help himself, instead he just made it worse.*** Someone like that would have to be crazy! Er...yeah. More proof. ***it really bothers me that Disney, of all places, would justify his warped existence by putting him in a place of honor and all for money*** Disney, of all places? Really? Perhaps you fail to realize what a warped entity Disney really is (maybe cause you worship it?), and the fact that Disney doesn't care about ANYTHING except for the next profit opportunity (even taking advantage of a crazy, warped recently dead celebrity). ?? Just sayin....
Originally Posted By danyoung >I think it more likely he had some sort of weird mental illness that caused him the delusion of really BELIEVING he was a kid.< Wow - X and I are on the same page - again! >He had everything available to him to try and help himself, instead he just made it worse.< You simply don't have a clue (nor do I) what it must have been like to grow up like that, in the spotlight, torn between his mother's religious beliefs and the womanizing of his father and brothers. If ever there was a guy who didn't have a normal childhood, it's MJ. And it's no wonder that that affected him in his adulthood. Was he a strange guy? Yeah! Do I want my kids spending time with him? Not really. Was he an incredible peformer who wrote and sang and danced some of the most amazing stuff ever? Absolutely.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Yup...on all counts, but, many people grow up in a like environment and chose to go a different direction. Was he responsible for his obvious mental illness, not really. Does that make him a hero, not really. Does that make it OK to justify his behavior by making it seem like this was the greatest person to ever inhabit the earth, not at all. What he WAS, is not relevant to what he became. Great talent, yes! Wasted life, yes again! Awful family, my, my yes! Ultimately, we are responsible for our actions. We chose what turn to take in the road and even though it can be said that he was probably influenced by his past life, it doesn't excuse it...it is just a reason for it. There is a difference. Although, I may seem like I am trying to convince others to see the same thing that I see, I am not. I really am only wanting to express my opinion. If someone finds value in that opinion, great, if not, well...what can I say. Everyone marches to the beat of their own drum. It's just that Disney will never see a penny of my money going out to support this cause. As far as my worship of Disney...nothing could be further from the truth. The only thing I expect from Disney now or have ever expected from them is entertainment. What's next...a Charles Manson, "Crazy from Birth" thrill ride in Adventureland? I'm sure if a dollar could be made by it...it would be there.
Originally Posted By danyoung >...he was probably influenced by his past life, it doesn't excuse it...it is just a reason for it.< Agreed. Look, I don't want to excuse any of the strange thing MJ has done, although I honestly don't think he was guilty of molestation. But there just can't be any denying that he has had an incredible influence on music throughout the years, and the EO video in particular had a wide reaching impact on how modern videos were made. You don't have to support one or the other - you can see that he was a pretty strange guy while still appreciating the contributions to music. And I think your Manson comparison was completely invalid. Comparing a strange music genius with a serial killer is going beyond hyperbole. But I do appreciate your point that you're just expressing your opinion, as am I. Too many online discussions devolve into personal attacks and name calling. Nice to see that we can have a difference without all that mess!
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>But there just can't be any denying that he has had an incredible influence on music throughout the years<<< Agreed but at some point his past accomplishments became irrelevant, in my mind, due to his behavior. Sorry about the Charles Manson thing, but I wasn't trying to say that it was equal, but that I am worried that the way we think about "celebrities" could make that happen someday. Example...Pete Rose. Does his gambling mean that he wasn't a great baseball player that had done enough to actually make it to the hall of fame? He had contributed to the game tremendously, but his actions belittled his accomplishments. How about OJ, the last I heard he was found not guilty of the murders, so technically he didn't do it, right? Yet, all his accomplishments are practically forgotten. Oh, yes we all say he did it, but, can any of us prove it. They managed to get him on other charges anyway. MJ...well he was acquitted of child abuse, but if something looks like a duck, acts like a duck and walks like a duck, we shouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be a duck. And again with the emphasis on MY OPINION ONLY, I would sooner give a break to a murderer than a child abuser. Therein lies my lack of compassion about him. I also would like to put a strangle hold on all those around him that allowed all of that to happen (or in this case, not happen) right under their noses and did nothing about it. I think it is time for me to wade out of this discussion because my feelings are so strong about it that it will only led to trouble. I don't really hate MJ, I just hate the way he became something close to a saint because he died. Especially since he died because of over use of drugs that he shouldn't even have had access too. WTH? You put him in Disneyland or WDW and suddenly, once again he is a role model for all the kids and exposure of his bad side is shrunk to the point of invisibility. I just cannot deal with that.
Originally Posted By danyoung Goofster, I can sure understand where you're coming from. But I think there were plenty of mitigating circumstances in his case to give him the benefit of the doubt. What you call drug abuse I call criminal doctors giving him stuff that he should not have been given. And no one around him was strong enough to stand up to him and say no, you can't have that. And I strongly believe, from what's been said and from MJ interviews, that he is in no way guilty of child abuse (and I agree - special place in hell for child abusers!). Bad judgement - yup. Distorted view of himself as a child - probably. Sleepovers and candy and video games and generally behaving as if he was a little kid - most likely. Guilty of child abuse - I really don't think so. But I also agree with you, Goof, that there was a huge turnaround once he died. I was not a part of that - I never stopped being a fan of his music in his heyday. I just think that his plusses outweigh his minuses. Not so much with OJ, IMO.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<You put him in Disneyland or WDW and suddenly, once again he is a role model for all the kids and exposure of his bad side is shrunk to the point of invisibility. I just cannot deal with that.>> If hypothetically kids see MJ in EO and grow up thinking of him as a role model in that light...as an entertainer...isn't ignorant bliss? If they don't know about his alleged bad side, is that really a problem? Put another way, if a kid saw Pete Rose as a player only, would it be terrible for that kid to want to be a great baseball player?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> By the same token, why would Disney want to make a biopic of Jim Henson, who was a womanizer and drug user in his personal life? Is any of that going to be addressed or revealed in the movie? With the Henson family in control of it, don't count on it. << Funny, I've never heard anything mentioned about drug use nor womanizing concerning Jim Henson. I guess I lead to much of a sheltered life.
Originally Posted By MPierce We tend to have a whole different set of rules for our celebrities, and athletes. We readily excuse their major character flaws simply because they have talent. Kind of saids something about our society doesn't it.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Funny, I've never heard anything mentioned about drug use nor womanizing concerning Jim Henson. I guess I lead to much of a sheltered life.<<< Neither did I...that came from right field. He was a popular figure, talented and creative. Seems like we would have heard about those missteps somewhere along the line. Is there any evidence, other than hearsay, to back that up?
Originally Posted By Mr X Tried to google it up...got nothin (although apparently some of the muppet guys were stoners (big surprise), but there was nothing specific even there about Henson's involvement in any of that).
Originally Posted By leobloom > I guess I lead to much of a sheltered life. < I'm glad you agree. Why don't you go to a real metropolis like, I dunno, El Paso and see how the real world lives.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance I think it's less about excusing celebrity character flaws and realizing what a celebrity is like personally has absolutely nothing to do with whatever it is they are trying to sell...music, a movie, a puppet, whatever. Who really cares if Jim Henson was a womanizer (whatever that really means anyway, doesn't that just really mean he liked having sex with women?) or used drugs, what does that have anything to do with The Muppets he created? Should we shut down Sesame Street because his muppets are used on that show? While we're at it, why don't we just round up all of the musicians, actors, comedians, etc whom have ever done anything wrong in their life and throw all of their accomplished work into a trash can and light it on fire?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Blah ... that's just my reaction to this topic. Blah as in HISTA, which sucks more than a $20 whore or a health insurance company exec. Blah as far as the weak notion of an updated version, which I strongly doubt is in the realm of possibility. Blah in the stupidity and abject GREED of TWDC/TDA in bringing EO back to DL. Blah to those who want to keep discussing Michael Jackson's troubled life when he has been dead for eight months. He was a very troubled man who was incredibly talented from early childhood and abused by his father (and who knows who else) who was murdered (according to the LA DA's office) and left children behind who obviously love him very much. Seriously ... what is left to talk about? Blah, blah and ... oh yeah, blah.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Welcome Connie (can I call you that?) ... great to have you here. Post much?
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Thanks, sure you can call me that, and I post too much probably. : )
