Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom ((>>Halliburton never got anything like the bail out Obama doled out<< Surely you jest.)) Halliburton got Federal bail outs? That's news.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<So the Bush Administration started a war and handed Haliburton $80B. And oddly enough the Vice Prez. was the former CEO with boatloads of Haliburton stock.>> Where was the US military suppose to get their military weapons from Sears & Roebuck? I also don't remember any objections at the time from either side of the aisle.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<The worst part is conservatives actually BELIEVE the crap they throw at the wall.>> Well, I'm a consertative and I think we should be closing tax loop holes and tax incentives and I don't see any Democrats inside the beltway hankering to get that done. Least of all Obama. All the Democrats do is talk about raising taxes. And spend, spend, spend. You do realize that if your Corporation and your paying zero in Federal Taxes, you can raise their tax rate up to 100% and they still are paying zero, right?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<There's obviously a lot you don't get. Of course no one forced Obama to choose Immelt. But that's irrelevant to how GE got its tax breaks,>> But not irrelevant to how GE continues to get tax breaks. I don't see any effort by Obama or any other Democrats in Congress to take away tax breaks. Actions speak louder than words.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <He proposed and put before Congress his own version of the national budget (which even the Democrats voted against).> Sort of. And he's hardly the first to do this. <Despite the fact that coming up with a national budget is the sole responcibility of the Legislative Branch of the Federal Government and NOT the Executive Branch.> Strange - now you seem to get it. Presidents can propose things, and have for a long, long time (this is hardly new since Obama). But on taxes, Presidents suggest the broadest outlines - certainly not the decades-worth of minutia that is collectively responsible for GE's tiny tax bill. THAT (remember what this topic was supposed to be about?) was put in place long before Obama got there, by successive Congresses, over decades. <Well that isn't true since it was the Obama White House that put a stop to the Christmas Tree Tax after 12 hours.> Man, you really need to a). bone up on how government works; like a lot of would-be Constitutionalists, you really have a limited understanding of it (as evidenced earlier by your misunderstanding of how the judicial branch works), and b). stop drinking the kool aid. <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-snyder/christmas-tree-tax_b_1087314.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...314.html</a> "Firstly, this wasn't exactly a "tax" because it wasn't meant to raise government revenue. And it wasn't Obama's proposal. In fact it's a fee to be paid by growers, not sellers, who "requested" the idea in 2009. Plus, do the math. 15¢ on each Christmas tree -- which are around $40 these days -- is a tax of .375%. Not quite four-tenths of a percent. Sales tax in New York is nearly 9%. And even firehouses are forced to pay sales tax on Christmas tree fundraisers (pg. 19). So is Andrew Cuomo 24 times the Grinch that Obama is, or is this just hysteria? In a statement, The National Christmas Tree Association asserted, "The program is not expected to have any impact on the final price consumers pay for their Christmas tree" (emphasis theirs). And before the trickle-down zealots chime in: even in the event that a cash-strapped grower raises the price of their trees, shouldn't the market allow them to find the 15¢ cheaper tree nearby? Would 15¢ prevent anyone for having a Christmas tree in their home? Not according to the growers, who feel it is small price to pay for the sustainability of their local farms. As WPDE reporter Joel Allen so eloquently put it, while peeping out from behind a South Carolina spruce, "Christmas tree growers like to point out that if you buy an artificial tree, you're just supporting a manufacturer -- with its workers possibly in China. Whereas, if you buy a natural tree, you're supporting a family business." Yes, in a recession, Obama is being attacked for trying to promote family businesses. The saddest part is that, under pressure from the right-wing blogosphere, the administration immediately abandoned the plan, leaving the conspiracy theorists to feel vindicated, and tree growers out in the cold." That last bit seems to describe you and the programs you obviously listen to, sadly. <It's a shame it took him 3 years to put an end to Don't Ask Don't Tell despite overturning DADT being a campaign promise.> Since DADT was originally an act of Congress, only an act of Congress could overturn it. Obama could not magically wave his hand and make it go away. Truman could integrate the forces with an executive order because segregation was a policy, not a law passed by Congress. Once Congress made it a law, they had to un-make the law (again, you need to bone up on how the Constitution you claim to understand actually works). And which party in Congress blocked repeal from happening for 3 years? You've got a 50/50 chance here. Hint: it wasn't the party that controlled the House and PASSED repeal years before it finally took hold. It was the party that killed it through the filibuster in the Senate.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But not irrelevant to how GE continues to get tax breaks. I don't see any effort by Obama or any other Democrats in Congress to take away tax breaks. Actions speak louder than words.> If you'd pay a little better attention you'd see that there HAVE been efforts by some Democrats (Bernie Sanders and others) to do exactly that. All this has to originate in the Congress, so Obama can't do anything but express support for the idea - which he has, repeatedly. Only to be called a "socialist" when he does, or "hurting the job creators."
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Sort of.>> Sort of? <<Presidents can propose things,>> Propose things? It was Obamas budget. Not the Democratics in Congress like then Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi ( they voted against it ).
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Yes, in a recession, Obama is being attacked for trying to promote family businesses.>> Family businesses? The largest 500 Christmas Tree distrubutors collectively go to the Federal Government and successfully get a Federal tax imposed on everyone to fund the 500 largest Christmas Tree distributors "marketing campaign" and you are trying to say JUST conservatives had a problem with this?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Yes, sort of. Presidents can propose a budget, but it is never as detailed as what Congress eventually comes up with, and of course it's always subject to Congressional approval. It does not include the real minutia of tax policy, which is what we were (supposedly) talking about, and which is what allowed GE to pay minimal taxes. And which was all in place long before Obama took office. Try as you might, there's no honest way to make Obama the fall guy for GE's tiny tax bill.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<If you'd pay a little better attention you'd see that there HAVE been efforts by some Democrats (Bernie Sanders>> And if you were paying attention you would know that Bernie Sanders isn't a Democrat. He's a Socialist. Again where does Obama the leader of the Democratic Party stand on this. Better yet, what is he doing about it?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The largest 500 Christmas Tree distrubutors collectively go to the Federal Government and successfully get a Federal tax imposed on everyone to fund the 500 largest Christmas Tree distributors "marketing campaign" and you are trying to say JUST conservatives had a problem with this?> Did you read the article? They proposed something like the "got milk" campaign, which of course has to be paid for. And yes, most live Christmas tree businesses ARE small, family businesses. It was a fee to be paid by THEM, not the sellers, not the consumer. EVEN IF the 15 cents (15 cents!) eventually got passed on to the consumer - which was not expected to happen - it's 15 freaking cents. And from this, the cynical right wing sees a chance to rail on Obama again (even though it was proposed BY the growers, not Obama) and make a mountain out of a molehill. And the people who lap this stuff up look as foolish as you do now, frankly.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<but it is never as detailed as what Congress eventually comes up with,>> Bull, it was Obama's budget that was placed before a then Democratic controlled Congress. The Democrats shot it down. The Democrats never put forth a Federal Budget, that's why Congess has to keep voting to increase the debt ceiling.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And if you were paying attention you would know that Bernie Sanders isn't a Democrat.> That's why I said "and others." Sanders' just has the best proposals, IMO. <Bull, it was Obama's budget that was placed before a then Democratic controlled Congress.> I really don't have time to teach you basic civics here, but you should take a course or something, and stop listening to your radio. <The Democrats shot it down. The Democrats never put forth a Federal Budget, that's why Congess has to keep voting to increase the debt ceiling.> The debt ceiling was raised multiple times under Bush. The only thing that was different this time is the GOP decided they could hold our credit rating hostage to get what they wanted.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Try as you might, there's no honest way to make Obama the fall guy for GE's tiny tax bill.>> I don't see Obama trying to change things. All I see is Obama along with the rest of the Democrats ( and the one Socialist in Congess ) saying they want to raise taxes on the rich and Corporations. And despite the fact that there are many corporations like GE with zero to little Federal Tax burder. The "tax hikers" fail to realize that zero of anything up to 100% is still zero.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<And yes, most live Christmas tree businesses ARE small, family businesses.>> Are you going to convince me that the 500 largest Christmas Tree distrubutors are small family owned businesses? The Christmas Tree industry is a multibillion dollar industry. And in the "Got Milk" campaign the dairy industry didn't go to the Feds and ask the Feds to impose a tax so the dairy industry could run the "Got Milk" marketing campaign. The dairy industry paid for it themselves. Maybe those small business owner 500 largest Christmas Tree distrubutors should have done the same thing.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<The debt ceiling was raised multiple times under Bush. The only thing that was different this time is the GOP decided they could hold our credit rating hostage to get what they wanted.>> Because the Democratic Controlled Congess failed to propose a Federal Budget there was no choice but to raise the debt ceiling. Something Obama wants to do till the end of 2012.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<GOP decided they could hold our credit rating hostage>> No member in Congess has control over "our" nations credit rating. That is done by a independent corporate entity. Who have been critized by both Democrats AND Republicans ( as well as that Socialist in Congess ) since our nations credit rates was downgraded and other countries in worse economic shape have not been downgraded.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "No member in Congess has control over "our" nations credit rating. That is done by a independent corporate entity. Who have been critized by both Democrats AND Republicans ( as well as that Socialist in Congess ) since our nations credit rates was downgraded and other countries in worse economic shape have not been downgraded." It is like a personal credit score. If you do not pay your bills, your score goes down. When the Republicans waited so long to budge on the debt ceiling being raised, they created serious uncertainty about whether or not the US government would still be able to pay its bills. The uncertainty that the Republicans created, just for the fun of trying to screw Obama, is what led to the credit rating being lowered. The Republicans have voted to raise the debt ceiling every other time it has needed to be done. The only reason they were balking this time was because they are hell bent on doing the exact opposite of whatever Obama wants to do, and they really do not care what the consequences to the country are. They were willing to bankrupt the country to win their political game. That is disgusting.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Man, what you don't understand is a lot. <All I see is Obama along with the rest of the Democrats ( and the one Socialist in Congess ) saying they want to raise taxes on the rich and Corporations. And despite the fact that there are many corporations like GE with zero to little Federal Tax burder. The "tax hikers" fail to realize that zero of anything up to 100% is still zero.> Actually, no one I know of is proposing raising the corporate tax rate. Only the individual rate on the top 1 or 2%. There ARE people saying the loopholes should be closed - which you seem to be in favor of. Most of the people saying "close the loopholes" are Democrats, and most people opposing that are Republicans who have taken the ridiculous Norquist pledge, and ol' Grover considers loophole-closing to be a "tax hike." <Are you going to convince me that the 500 largest Christmas Tree distrubutors are small family owned businesses? > They're the people organized enough to create this proposal. I live in NYC but last year I helped my friends upstate pick out a tree and they did it at a very small family-owned tree farm. MOST farms are indeed like this, at least around where I live. Like dairy farmers (indeed, MORE so in the Christmas tree growers case), some are large concerns and some are small. <The dairy industry paid for it themselves. Maybe those small business owner 500 largest Christmas Tree distrubutors should have done the same thing.> If you don't think the dairy industry passes the costs of those advertisements along, you don't understand more than I thought. This is something the industry itself came up with. It is NOT Obama's brain child. <Because the Democratic Controlled Congess failed to propose a Federal Budget there was no choice but to raise the debt ceiling. > Wrong on multiple levels. First, the debt ceiling UNTIL THIS YEAR was considered mere "housekeeping." It was always done merely as a matter of course, no matter who was in the White House or who controlled Congress. A limited number of the "out" party have always been allowed to protest on the floor to look good to constituents, on the understanding that it would pass, because it needed to. And it is based on debt we have ALREADY accrued - not on future budgets. <No member in Congess has control over "our" nations credit rating. That is done by a independent corporate entity. Who have been critized by both Democrats AND Republicans ( as well as that Socialist in Congess ) since our nations credit rates was downgraded and other countries in worse economic shape have not been downgraded.> Partially correct. But the credit would never have been downgraded without the shenanigans of the GOP in raising doubt that the ceiling would be raised (when there was never doubt before, even when the debt was a larger share of GDP than it is now); the ratings agency itself said so. Again, the debt ceiling is based on debt already accrued; if you don't raise it, the "full faith and credit of the United States" is called into doubt, which is why it was never in doubt of being raised before. Till the GOP decided to hold us hostage.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It is like a personal credit score. If you do not pay your bills, your score goes down. When the Republicans waited so long to budge on the debt ceiling being raised, they created serious uncertainty about whether or not the US government would still be able to pay its bills. The uncertainty that the Republicans created, just for the fun of trying to screw Obama, is what led to the credit rating being lowered.> Exactly, PJ - you said it better than I did. <The Republicans have voted to raise the debt ceiling every other time it has needed to be done. The only reason they were balking this time was because they are hell bent on doing the exact opposite of whatever Obama wants to do, and they really do not care what the consequences to the country are. They were willing to bankrupt the country to win their political game. That is disgusting.> Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner!
